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Thread: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    So would it be fine if I said "I thought about calling you an asshole, but I hold myself to higher standards?" Yeah...right.
    Not valid! Calling another poster here an asshole is inappropriate. Calling the Pope or any person in the public domain whatever is acceptable and is part of the First Amendment rights Americans should defend to the death.

    Religious freedom in the US also means the ability to express one's disgust for religion or religions and to speak against religious leaders that one disagrees with.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Family Guy View Post
    Isn't it against the rules to publicly demand that Mods take action? Aren't complaints, by rule, supposed to be made in private and not reported to the general public?
    My 1st amendment right says I can tell you whatever I want to about what I complain about.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Family Guy View Post
    Not valid! Calling another poster here an asshole is inappropriate. Calling the Pope or any person in the public domain whatever is acceptable and is part of the First Amendment rights Americans should defend to the death.

    Religious freedom in the US also means the ability to express one's disgust for religion or religions and to speak against religious leaders that one disagrees with.
    It wasn't about "the pope"--read the subsequent posts as ludahai suggested.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    If it is done out of hatred for Jews, yes.

    If it is done out of legitimate historical inquiry, no.
    What kind of person would consider not believing that the Holocaust existed "legitimate historical inquiry?"

    That's like saying that looking into whether it was Jews or the US government who were behind 9-11 is "legitimate historical inquiry."

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Although the Pope's decision might have been intended to forgive the individual, I believe it was a short-sighted decision. First, former bishop Richard Williamson has not repudiated his Holocaust denial. Second, a step that ignores the Holocaust denial creates a precedent under which the Church's overall messages of tolerance and justice are undermined. Third, the decision undermines the progress that has been made under Pope John Paul II in improving Catholic-Jewish relations. In my view, the decision was a bad one. The costs for the Catholic Church outweigh any benefits.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Although the Pope's decision might have been intended to forgive the individual, I believe it was a short-sighted decision. First, former bishop Richard Williamson has not repudiated his Holocaust denial. Second, a step that ignores the Holocaust denial creates a precedent under which the Church's overall messages of tolerance and justice are undermined. Third, the decision undermines the progress that has been made under Pope John Paul II in improving Catholic-Jewish relations. In my view, the decision was a bad one. The costs for the Catholic Church outweigh any benefits.
    The Catholic Church is not in the business of molding people's political opinions despite how some view the Church's stance on some politically sensitive issues. The Church is in the business of leading its members to live in accord with Christ's teaching.

    So--for instance, The Church's teaching on abortion is not about the political aspects related to abortion or abortion funding, but rather it is concerned with the moral culpability that individuals incur related to their personal actions regarding what the church deems gravely sinful matter.

    So--how that relates to sedevacantists is that the reason they were excommunicated was because they rejected the authority of the Pope in matters of faith and morals. If they reverse that stance, then even though they may hold political opinions that are contrary to the stance of the Church, they do not hold a tenet contrary to the dogmatic faith itself.

    The Pope does not have to agree with political positions of people, nor vice versa--merely the dogmatic faith that has been promulgated. So reinstating them would be appropriate even though they may have political differences.


    It may not be a popular, but it's appropriate. The Catholic Church is anything but a slave to what is "popular."



    Now....I need to read the OP news link....
    Last edited by Felicity; 01-25-09 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Yep--the article makes the point I was making clear....
    The Vatican said the excommunications had been lifted after the bishops affirmed their willingness to accept Church teachings and papal authority.

    "This act regards the lifting of the excommunications, period," he told reporters.

    "It has nothing to do with the personal opinions of a person, which are open to criticism, but are not pertinent to this decree."

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    The Catholic Church is not in the business of molding people's political opinions despite how some view the Church's stance on some politically sensitive issues. The Church is in the business of leading its members to live in accord with Christ's teaching.
    Felicity,

    From Pope John Paul II's March 23, 2000 address at Jerusalem's Yad Vashem Museum:

    I have come to Yad Vashem to pay homage to the millions of Jewish people who, stripped of everything, especially of their human dignity, were murdered in the Holocaust. More than half a century has passed, but the memories remain.

    Here, as at Auschwitz and many other places in Europe, we are overcome by the echo of the heart-rending laments of so many. Men, women and children cry out to us from the depths of the horror that they knew. How can we fail to heed their cry? No one can forget or ignore what happened. No one can diminish its scale.

    As Bishop of Rome and Successor of the Apostle Peter, I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church, motivated by the Gospel law of truth and love and by no political considerations, is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place. The Church rejects racism in any form as a denial of the image of the Creator inherent in every human being...

    The world must heed the warning that comes to us from the victims of the Holocaust and from the testimony of the survivors.


    In my opinion, Pope John Paul II made clear the Church's position:

    1. The Holocaust is fact.
    2. Millions were murdered in the Holocaust.
    3. No one can forget or ignore the reality of the Holocaust.
    4. The world has a responsibility to heed the "warning" about human nature that comes from the Holocaust.

    Former bishop Williamson rejected Pope John Paul II's message on a matter of not politics, but fundamental morality. Williamson's Holocaust denial is inconsistent to what Pope John Paul II referred as "the Gospel law of truth and love" that broadly defines the Church's teachings.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 01-25-09 at 11:55 AM.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In my opinion, Pope John Paul II made clear the Church's position:

    1. The Holocaust is fact.
    2. Millions were murdered in the Holocaust.
    3. No one can forget or ignore the reality of the Holocaust.
    4. The world has a responsibility to heed the "warning" about human nature that comes from the Holocaust.

    Former bishop Williamson rejected Pope John Paul II's message on a matter of not politics, but fundamental morality. Williamson's Holocaust denial is inconsistent to what Pope John Paul II referred as "the Gospel law of truth and love" that broadly defines the Church's teachings.
    I agree wholeheartedly that that is the Church's official stance on the matter--and rightly so. However--the specific issue is not what is called "an article of Faith" of the Catholic Church or "pure dogma."


    As it relates to whether a group is in "schism" with the Church, Church Dogma is necessarily considered. This article has a section that refers to the divisions of dogma. The last three are relevant to whether a group is in schism or not. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Dogma


    Basically, one (or a group) can be at odds with Church Doctrine and teaching, and not be in schism. This is the case here. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Schism

    They are wrong in their opinion, but they are willing to assent to the authority of the Church. The job now is to move closer to the revealed truth by the gradual process of recognizing that which JPII already made clear is the official Church position. Sin is a horrible thing and healing takes time. These men are on a path to healing, though not fully there yet.
    Last edited by Felicity; 01-25-09 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: Pope move ignites Holocaust row

    Quote Originally Posted by Family Guy View Post
    Isn't it against the rules to publicly demand that Mods take action? Aren't complaints, by rule, supposed to be made in private and not reported to the general public?
    I don't know, is it? I have seen many people post that they had made a complaint about a post with varying degrees of specificity in the post. I have on a couple of occasions with border-line cases that I WOULD make a report if it continued or got worse. I suppose it depends on your intentions. However, at the same time, you have to admit that a couple of the posts on the first page of this thread were HIGHLY offensive and way over the line.
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