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Thread: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

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    Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

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    I think this is bad new, but that the tension will quickly pass.


    I think most Europeans want and will welcome Ukraine into the EU, and I think for Ukraine the only choice they have is to join the EU..
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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Actually Ukraine has 2 choices.
    1) Join EU assuming EU want them.
    2) Continue to kowtow to Russia.
    IMO I think Russia will probably win as they are the only one that can keep Ukraine warm.

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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Actually Ukraine has 2 choices.
    1) Join EU assuming EU want them.
    2) Continue to kowtow to Russia.
    IMO I think Russia will probably win as they are the only one that can keep Ukraine warm.
    Number 2 is not really an option, unless Ukraine want to keep under performing(as oppose to reach their fantastic potential) and want to embrace long lasting poverty(as oppose to getting rich, easily and quickly).

    European policies is the only thing that will keep Ukrainians happy, and the only policies that will keep Ukraine warm beyond the next 25 years..

    Ukraine btw gets most of its "warmth" from nuclear power.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 01-24-09 at 08:31 AM.
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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    I don’t know how your minds work. The facts and numbers and reasoning were given to both of you, but you both still go to another tread and post the same delirium based on ….what? Your Russo phobia? Your Ukrainephilia? You make up things, lie, deceive, and spin – what for?

    Besides 20% + discount on gas over ¾ of Ukrainian people have very strong, brotherly historical, ethnical, political and business ties with the peoples of the RF. That’s why the Ukrainian President who has been trying to cut these ties and sell Ukraine to the West has less than 3% approval rating. It becomes more and more clear for many Ukrainians that the democracy forced by the West into their throats makes them choke and suffer.

    Ukraine, of course gets the most of its worms from gas. Why do you need to make up “nuclear”?

    It is quite certain that Ukraine can reach it fantastic potential only if it keeps its ties with Russia and stands with it against the plague of democracy forced on it from the West. Exactly the attempt of the orange revolutioners to establish this democracy in Ukraine has been making the most of Ukrainians spiral down to poverty, when Russians have been moving up.

    Even if to accept the idiotic idea that the Western democracy can bring prosperity to Ukrainians, you don’t understand the Russian/Ukrainian mentality. The people in EU are parasites, they have their prosperity only because of the philanthropy of the US, starting from the help in WWII, going through Marshal’s plan and up to the present – when the US carries the duties it carries in the world.

    Ukrainians may not accept the idea imposed by the democracy, - we are rich (we skip that we are rich because of the US) so if you listen to us we will make you rich. As representatives of the Western democracy you wouldn’t realize that Ukrainians may prefer to stay poor, but free, on their own. Your minds cannot comprehend such a possibility as you cannot comprehend the facts, statistics and numbers represented to you. Ukrainians may rather accept the Russian way, - let’s remain brothers and work together and get where we can get, no string attached, no dignity and pride taken away.

    And of course, Russia is and will be putting a fight against the spread of the Western democracy. Considering all the above, real numbers and statistics, the fact that Russia has a very strong team on the top and it has been scoring all the time, as well as all natural inabilities of the western democracy it would be reasonable to conclude that Ukrainians will be restoring and keeping their ties with Russia, rather then bending down for the West.

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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    I don’t know how your minds work. The facts and numbers and reasoning were given to both of you, but you both still go to another tread and post the same delirium based on ….what? Your Russo phobia? Your Ukrainephilia? You make up things, lie, deceive, and spin – what for?

    Besides 20% + discount on gas over ¾ of Ukrainian people have very strong, brotherly historical, ethnical, political and business ties with the peoples of the RF. That’s why the Ukrainian President who has been trying to cut these ties and sell Ukraine to the West has less than 3% approval rating. It becomes more and more clear for many Ukrainians that the democracy forced by the West into their throats makes them choke and suffer.

    Ukraine, of course gets the most of its worms from gas. Why do you need to make up “nuclear”?

    It is quite certain that Ukraine can reach it fantastic potential only if it keeps its ties with Russia and stands with it against the plague of democracy forced on it from the West. Exactly the attempt of the orange revolutioners to establish this democracy in Ukraine has been making the most of Ukrainians spiral down to poverty, when Russians have been moving up.

    Even if to accept the idiotic idea that the Western democracy can bring prosperity to Ukrainians, you don’t understand the Russian/Ukrainian mentality. The people in EU are parasites, they have their prosperity only because of the philanthropy of the US, starting from the help in WWII, going through Marshal’s plan and up to the present – when the US carries the duties it carries in the world.

    Ukrainians may not accept the idea imposed by the democracy, - we are rich (we skip that we are rich because of the US) so if you listen to us we will make you rich. As representatives of the Western democracy you wouldn’t realize that Ukrainians may prefer to stay poor, but free, on their own. Your minds cannot comprehend such a possibility as you cannot comprehend the facts, statistics and numbers represented to you. Ukrainians may rather accept the Russian way, - let’s remain brothers and work together and get where we can get, no string attached, no dignity and pride taken away.

    And of course, Russia is and will be putting a fight against the spread of the Western democracy. Considering all the above, real numbers and statistics, the fact that Russia has a very strong team on the top and it has been scoring all the time, as well as all natural inabilities of the western democracy it would be reasonable to conclude that Ukrainians will be restoring and keeping their ties with Russia, rather then bending down for the West.
    Mostly delusional stuff there.
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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I think for Ukraine the only choice they have is to join the EU..
    Although EU membership might be possible for Ukraine--NATO membership is not likely to be forthcoming--such membership will not mean that Ukraine can completely cut its ties with Russia. Ukraine has no such option. Its interests require an effective relationship with Russia. A policy that diverges from those interests could not only increase regional instability, but also lead to a fracturing of Ukraine e.g., Crimea could attempt to secede.

    In my opinion, Ukranian President Viktor Yuschenko has grown deeply unpopular precisely because he attempted to steer the nation on a course that diverged from its interests and increasingly promoted conflict with Russia. He will likely be defeated at the polls should he seek a second term in early 2010.

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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Although EU membership might be possible for Ukraine--NATO membership is not likely to be forthcoming--such membership will not mean that Ukraine can completely cut its ties with Russia. Ukraine has no such option. Its interests require an effective relationship with Russia. A policy that diverges from those interests could not only increase regional instability, but also lead to a fracturing of Ukraine e.g., Crimea could attempt to secede.

    In my opinion, Ukranian President Viktor Yuschenko has grown deeply unpopular precisely because he attempted to steer the nation on a course that diverged from its interests and increasingly promoted conflict with Russia. He will likely be defeated at the polls should he seek a second term in early 2010.
    This is true, but even the tiny Baltic nations defied Russia when they joined the EU, and a country of similar size Poland hates Russia deeply.. I know its not the same for Ukraine right now, but rather deep inside they also hate Russia and want to break free of it completely, I have no doubt that when they do they will point their tongue at Russia just like Poland is doing.

    Ukraine is somewhat in a position between where Belarus and Poland is. You cannot think of Ukraine is the same way as Belarus.
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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Mostly delusional stuff there.
    Had to quote the whole post just to post a little insult?
    The only delusion here is yours, it gives you the feeling that you have an ability to conduct a conversation when all you are capable of is little yellow monkey mimics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    This is true, but even the tiny Baltic nations defied Russia when they joined the EU, and a country of similar size Poland hates Russia deeply.. I know its not the same for Ukraine right now, but rather deep inside they also hate Russia and want to break free of it completely, I have no doubt that when they do they will point their tongue at Russia just like Poland is doing.
    You are really full of hatred… Statistics shows that you are in minority with your hatred in Ukraine. Hatred will bring your type to self-destruction. The idea that if the tiny Baltic nations and Poland hate Russia thus the only choice for Ukraine is to follow them, will not bring prosperity to either of the countries mentioned. Georgia has learned it in hard way. Sooner or later either the type of don1’s reasoning will prevail over blind hatred in those countries or they will spiral into self–destruction.

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    Re: Bad faith creeping into EU-Ukraine relations

    Don,

    Your analyses is quite correct (which itself does not happen too often) - but things are a lot more complicated.

    You forget about the human factor and human nature. In my observation the hatred and cannibalism of Nazis is not a specific feature of German nationality, as well as hatred and cannibalism of Communists is not a specific feature of Russians. I know it is difficult for you to agree with me – as you have to overcome your own hatred – but aren’t you stumbled by hatred and cannibalism expressed by MZ as an example? Millions of haters marched to elect Obama on the “rational’’ of hatred, - hatred towards whites, towards bush, towards evangelicals, - all possible colors and ethnicity united in crowds short of throwing the right hand in the hail salute.

    Indeed the situation in Ukraine calls for fracturing and even violent fracturing if the Ukrainian gov-nt – very corrupt and personally greedy – forces NATO on the peoples of Ukraine. The West Ukrainians are usually full of hatred towards Russia, historically they joined Nazis and exterminated Jews/Russians. Some EU members may not be happy to have such an acquirement, though MZ will celebrate. Many mid country Ukrainians don’t have such a hatred and can think reasonably. Too many of Southern and Eastern Ukrainians are just Russians. The situation with Crimea is very similar, or even more bold than the situation with Ossetia Abhazia. Crimea had been Russian (conquered by Russians) for centuries, and moreover Russia had fought for it spilling blood and making it important in its policies since the times when the US didn’t exist yet. The Stalinist Chrushev (Ukrainian) gave it as “’a present’’ to the UkSSR, when he and everyone else knew that it was just a symbolic jester since the UkSSR was an undivadable (like Chrushev saw) part of the USSR. With the collapse of the USSR it turned to be quite dividable, but that did not change the realities on the ground. It is practically inevitable that Ukraine in NATO will be taken by Russians as an announcement of war. What does the EU gain from such an announcement and does it ever has ability to conduct such a war, are Ukrainians willing to sacrifice themselves like Georgians? I don’t really know, - as the majority of posters from the EU are quite blood thirsty and flesh hungry, I just hope they do not represent the majority of the EU.

    I think you are correct for a change, and Russia will allow Ukraine to join EU, - with no easy heart. Ukraine would do a mistake joining the EU, and it is quite possible that the majority of Ukrainians understand that. Ukraine has not only strong historical, ethnical and cultural ties with Russia, but it also has very strong scientific, technological, R&D and logistic ties. The later group will hardly find a reasonably fast and full appreciation in the EU.

    The experience of the Baltic republics shows that the peoples of those republics moved faster to prosperity than the people of Russia… but didn’t go too far. Mostly they rushed to the EU to provide a cheap labor, as well as to provide the cheap labor for the EU, and not quite a qualified labor. When in the USSR they were making $50 a month, they moved to making $500 in the EU and for the EU..But on other side Russians are moving to making almost the same, - at home, developing science, technology, space and military programs, keeping their national pride and dignity for themselves.. A Lithuanian professor of economics had problems to answer my question –what does Lithuania produce? Autos, tanks, tractors, space ships, computers, TVs, bread, turbines, planes, wines? As the Baltics used to be all Soviets, they still have high and now increasing level of corruption, when Russia is slowly getting rid of the inheritance of Communism. The primitive cannibalism of certain groups in those countries– when Russia and Russians are escape goats and vents for their own failures is not different from cannibalism of Nazi Germany or many of Obama voters. The fact that Russia is not the USSR, the same USSR as all of them used to be, escapes the cannibals. I gather that in the EU they are almost like Mexicans in the States. As the EU goes down, it damps them like garbage. Hatred is not productive in the time of peace neither it is capable of preserving peace. I gather that even some Western EU members start understanding such a simple truth.

    Ukrainians can see all of that. They saw what the Western democracy brought to Russia in 80th – and they may be afraid it will be the same in Ukraine. They see how things have changed for better when Russia stopped the democracy from spreading and started rolling it back.

    What do they gain joining the EU, - the majority of them, - the possibility to flood the EU with cheap labor and to be treated accordingly? Can the EU absorb the flood? What does the EU gain? Will it take the responsibility to pay full price for gas? Does it see a possibility of robbing and looting Ukraine like it did once with Russia as a good compensation?

    What do you think?

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