Is what you're living for today, worth dying for tomorrow?
Terrorists Abusing US Soldier in Iraq (graphic video) | Best GoreThis is a video released by Al-Ansar Media Battalion and features very comprehensive collection of messages from different insurgents and leaders of terrorists groups operating in Middle East, in particular Iraq. Video is very graphic and disturbing, involving abuse of a US soldier, stoning of young girl and mission of a suicide bomber.
In their speech, the terrorist leaders praise those who kill US soldiers and their allies and thank them for joy and relief their killing brings to the Muslims.
Bodies of abused US soldiers are shown dead in puddles of blood and a hand of another person is shown holding a severed head that belonged to one of beheaded, dead soldiers. The genital area of a soldier with his head cut off appears to be exposed, possibly in order to humiliate and abuse his dead body. The area is purposefully blurred out. The accompanying caption suggests that this is the fate that will befall n everyone who dares to violate the honor of Muslim sisters.
This nonsense that somehow our alleged torture of detainees at Gitmo will in turn result in our troops being similarly tortured is just that...nonsense. Our enemies are going to torture our troops...it's what they do. The US had no history of torturing military combatant detainees prior to WWII or even Vietnam, yet, our soldiers were tortured nonetheless.
This bunk nonsense presumes, again, as usual, that the US deserves the treatment she receives. It's the typical Blame America blather that is typical of the American left.
However, I did not say that it never works. Rather, I compared it to other methods and pointed out that it's unreliable.
From the CIA's 'Kubark' manualInterrogatees who are withholding but who feel qualms of guilt and a secret desire to yield are likely to become intractable if made to endure pain. The reason is that they can then interpret the pain as punishment and hence as expiation. There are also persons who enjoy pain and its anticipation and who will keep back information that they might otherwise divulge if they are given reason to expect that withholding will result in the punishment that they want. Persons of considerable moral or intellectual stature often find in pain inflicted by others a confirmation of the belief that they are in the hands of inferiors, and their resolve not to submit is strengthened.
Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, concocted as a means of escaping from distress. A time-consuming delay results, while investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite the interrogatee can pull himself together. He may even use the time to think up new, more complex "admissions" that take still longer to disprove. KUBARK is especially vulnerable to such tactics because the interrogation is conducted for the sake of information and not for police purposes.
If an interrogatee is caused to suffer pain rather late in the interrogation process and after other tactics have failed, he is almost certain to conclude that the interrogator is becoming desperate. He may then decide that if he can just hold out against this final assault, he will win the struggle and his freedom. And he is likely to be right. Interrogatees who have withstood pain are more difficult to handle by other methods. The effect has been not to repress the subject but to restore his confidence and maturity.
That's not enough of an analysis. The long term, big picture cost / benefit needs looking at as well. What are the costs of maintaining this for some once in a blue moon rare event?
Your hypothetical situations aren't at issue here. We are talking about the real world.
I may be wrong.
Sheesh, can we get some intellectual honesty up in here? hatuey, arguing that torture has worked to successfully derive accurate and reliable data/information is not an argument that torture will always result in deriving accurate and reliable data/information. It simply means that torture does work.
I don't think that Zimmer would and I am not arguing that torture always works. We're simply stating the obvious...that it does work.
Since some of us are now playing the appealing to authority game, here's my card:
Again, this is not an endorsement to use torture to interrogate anyone. It's simply citing the fact that torture does work.A former CIA agent who participated in interrogations of terror suspects said Tuesday that the controversial interrogation technique of "waterboarding" has saved lives, but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.
The former agent, who said he participated in the Abu Zubayda interrogation but not his waterboarding, said the CIA decided to waterboard the al Qaeda operative only after he was "wholly uncooperative" for weeks and refused to answer questions.
All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.
The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said.
Can we move past this very simple, indisputable point?
If you wanna argue that while torture does work it is too problemattic to rely on as a practice, then do so. But don't torture the simple points I or zimmer are making.
If you wanna argue that there are less physically coercive techniques to be used that will ellicit accurate and reliable data, then argue that, but don't caricature my or zimmer's arguments.
Simon seems particularly concerned with portraying our intelligence offices and national security personnel as buffoons who would not at all attempt to corroborate a detainee's statements before apologizing to a city that has been attacked for chasing down false leads. But he says he's talking about the real world.
Lastly, Hatuey...I have told you this before...
You mean "coercive," not "cohesive." Get the terminology right.No. It's the words of people who've actually conducted torture and cohesive methods.
You're going to deny torture works?No. It's the words of people who've actually conducted torture and cohesive methods. Try again.
Not worthy as a last ditch effort?
CANOE -- CNEWS - Canada: CIA director defends waterboarding
CIA director defends waterboarding
The United States insists it has not engaged in waterboarding during interrogations in the last five years.
However, CIA Director Michael Hayden said coercive techniques and other harsh tactics were useful in the campaign against terror.
Hayden is due to replaced by former White House chief of staff Leon Panetta as President-elect Barack Obama's CIA director.
Cute.Source? Let me guess? Waterboarding.org? Or better yet The Bush administration?
How the CIA Broke the 9/11 Attacks Mastermind
Conservative emotional rhetoric ignored. Save it for abortion commercials.You can feel good. Some day a patriot might have to break the law to save lives.Incoherent babel ignored for the sake of debate.
You are a compassionate individual. Your choices reveal it.Appeal to emotion ignored.
This was a choice you made. Placing terrorists temporary health above innocent civilians.More plea to emotional rhetoric ignored.
See above. Pt. 1Fourth attempt to the 'what if' mentality of so called 'compassionate' Conservatives. Here zimmer. I'll give you a tip. Why don't you provide some sort of evidence that torture does work other then the obviously unbiased resourceful 'Waterboarding.org' who depends on hearsay from unverifiable sources to make it's argument. Till then here's a tissue :
Phew. To me that's a sick mentality. Spare a terrorists so innocent people can be maimed or perish.Go cry about those we might be able to save because of torture to somebody else.
Last edited by zimmer; 01-24-09 at 02:11 AM.
I AM DEPLORABLE.
NEVER CRIMINAL HILLARY (S-NY)
"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi
If innocent lives can be saved through professional coercion, if that is the last alternative, I believe it to be moral to put that individual through temporary discomfort of pain and-or drugs to get that info.
Anything else is immoral.
For that reason, the option should be on the table.
I AM DEPLORABLE.
NEVER CRIMINAL HILLARY (S-NY)