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Thread: Obama - U.S. will not torture

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I have friends serving over in Iraq in various capacities, right now. They say sometimes.. they get information that they need and the only way to have done so was to use "harsh methods". But that's not the point, I was basically making the same point you were at the end of your statement...
    How would you feel about Iraqi's using torture on your friends? Is it not better to be the better person sometimes and rise above the mentality "we are just doing what they are doing". When we fall to their level, it makes us no better. I do not agree with torture and by us doing it, and some being proud of it, only leaves our men and women serving there more vulnerable to those kind of tactics.
    I call my own shots, largely based on an accumulation of data, and everyone knows it.
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    How would you feel about Iraqi's using torture on your friends? Is it not better to be the better person sometimes and rise above the mentality "we are just doing what they are doing". When we fall to their level, it makes us no better. I do not agree with torture and by us doing it, and some being proud of it, only leaves our men and women serving there more vulnerable to those kind of tactics.
    You serve a false logic up, that if we're nice they'll be nice.


    This is a video released by Al-Ansar Media Battalion and features very comprehensive collection of messages from different insurgents and leaders of terrorists groups operating in Middle East, in particular Iraq. Video is very graphic and disturbing, involving abuse of a US soldier, stoning of young girl and mission of a suicide bomber.

    In their speech, the terrorist leaders praise those who kill US soldiers and their allies and thank them for joy and relief their killing brings to the Muslims.

    Bodies of abused US soldiers are shown dead in puddles of blood and a hand of another person is shown holding a severed head that belonged to one of beheaded, dead soldiers. The genital area of a soldier with his head cut off appears to be exposed, possibly in order to humiliate and abuse his dead body. The area is purposefully blurred out. The accompanying caption suggests that this is the fate that will befall n everyone who dares to violate the honor of Muslim sisters.
    Terrorists Abusing US Soldier in Iraq (graphic video) | Best Gore

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    This nonsense that somehow our alleged torture of detainees at Gitmo will in turn result in our troops being similarly tortured is just that...nonsense. Our enemies are going to torture our troops...it's what they do. The US had no history of torturing military combatant detainees prior to WWII or even Vietnam, yet, our soldiers were tortured nonetheless.

    This bunk nonsense presumes, again, as usual, that the US deserves the treatment she receives. It's the typical Blame America blather that is typical of the American left.

  4. #84
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Waterboarding worked. It busted an attack in planning. Saving lives. That makes several of your points not only moot, but false.
    It's possible that several things you think I said may have been rendered moot.
    However, I did not say that it never works. Rather, I compared it to other methods and pointed out that it's unreliable.
    From the CIA's 'Kubark' manual
    Interrogatees who are withholding but who feel qualms of guilt and a secret desire to yield are likely to become intractable if made to endure pain. The reason is that they can then interpret the pain as punishment and hence as expiation. There are also persons who enjoy pain and its anticipation and who will keep back information that they might otherwise divulge if they are given reason to expect that withholding will result in the punishment that they want. Persons of considerable moral or intellectual stature often find in pain inflicted by others a confirmation of the belief that they are in the hands of inferiors, and their resolve not to submit is strengthened.
    Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, concocted as a means of escaping from distress. A time-consuming delay results, while investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite the interrogatee can pull himself together. He may even use the time to think up new, more complex "admissions" that take still longer to disprove. KUBARK is especially vulnerable to such tactics because the interrogation is conducted for the sake of information and not for police purposes.
    If an interrogatee is caused to suffer pain rather late in the interrogation process and after other tactics have failed, he is almost certain to conclude that the interrogator is becoming desperate. He may then decide that if he can just hold out against this final assault, he will win the struggle and his freedom. And he is likely to be right. Interrogatees who have withstood pain are more difficult to handle by other methods. The effect has been not to repress the subject but to restore his confidence and maturity.
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I'm not saying this should be standard practice, but in a pinch the option shouldn't be yanked off the table. There might be a time it is necessary.
    Well there might be time when it's necessary to throw them a tea party with crumpets. Therefore we should always have some Assam and crumpets on hand.

    That's not enough of an analysis. The long term, big picture cost / benefit needs looking at as well. What are the costs of maintaining this for some once in a blue moon rare event?
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    What then?
    I make up a different hypothetical situation.
    Your hypothetical situations aren't at issue here. We are talking about the real world.
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Sorry (insert city), we just didn't feel we could rough-up Ahmed the Terrorist in an attempt to save the lives of your citizens. Ask Obama.
    Sorry (insert city), we just felt we needed to rough-up Ahmed the Terrorist in an attempt to save the lives of your citizens and he gave us phony intel that wasted our time and efforts to save you. Ask Zimmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    As for Jack Bauer moments (I don't watch 24 by the way), if somebody suggested terrorists would fly planes into the WTC, Pentagon and had one planned for the Capitol... people like you would have claimed it was too fantastic and I should go back to my TV fantasies.
    I may be wrong.

  5. #85
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Sheesh, can we get some intellectual honesty up in here? hatuey, arguing that torture has worked to successfully derive accurate and reliable data/information is not an argument that torture will always result in deriving accurate and reliable data/information. It simply means that torture does work.

    I don't think that Zimmer would and I am not arguing that torture always works. We're simply stating the obvious...that it does work.

    Since some of us are now playing the appealing to authority game, here's my card:

    A former CIA agent who participated in interrogations of terror suspects said Tuesday that the controversial interrogation technique of "waterboarding" has saved lives, but he considers the method torture and now opposes its use.

    The former agent, who said he participated in the Abu Zubayda interrogation but not his waterboarding, said the CIA decided to waterboard the al Qaeda operative only after he was "wholly uncooperative" for weeks and refused to answer questions.

    All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.

    The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said.
    Again, this is not an endorsement to use torture to interrogate anyone. It's simply citing the fact that torture does work.

    Can we move past this very simple, indisputable point?

    If you wanna argue that while torture does work it is too problemattic to rely on as a practice, then do so. But don't torture the simple points I or zimmer are making.

    If you wanna argue that there are less physically coercive techniques to be used that will ellicit accurate and reliable data, then argue that, but don't caricature my or zimmer's arguments.

    Simon seems particularly concerned with portraying our intelligence offices and national security personnel as buffoons who would not at all attempt to corroborate a detainee's statements before apologizing to a city that has been attacked for chasing down false leads. But he says he's talking about the real world.

    Pfffft!

    Lastly, Hatuey...I have told you this before...

    No. It's the words of people who've actually conducted torture and cohesive methods.
    You mean "coercive," not "cohesive." Get the terminology right.

  6. #86
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    If you make it illegal, you make it illegal for all situations. And then you have the scenario I illustrated and got vilified for. Primo, Secondo...

    Some Patriot will have to answer to the courts for protecting innocent civilians.

    There was nothing wrong with the way things were. We don't torture, but the option should be left open.

    It seems the Obama pacifists are writing the operating procedures.
    You are already giving into barbarity and I care nothing for Obama.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Hatuey...
    Gesundheit.

    No. It's the words of people who've actually conducted torture and cohesive methods. Try again.
    You're going to deny torture works?
    Never works?
    Not worthy as a last ditch effort?

    CANOE -- CNEWS - Canada: CIA director defends waterboarding
    CIA director defends waterboarding
    The United States insists it has not engaged in waterboarding during interrogations in the last five years.

    However, CIA Director Michael Hayden said coercive techniques and other harsh tactics were useful in the campaign against terror.

    Hayden is due to replaced by former White House chief of staff Leon Panetta as President-elect Barack Obama's CIA director.

    Source? Let me guess? Waterboarding.org? Or better yet The Bush administration?
    Cute.
    Waterboarding works:
    The Blotter
    How the CIA Broke the 9/11 Attacks Mastermind

    Conservative emotional rhetoric ignored. Save it for abortion commercials.
    Incoherent babel ignored for the sake of debate.
    You can feel good. Some day a patriot might have to break the law to save lives.

    Appeal to emotion ignored.
    You are a compassionate individual. Your choices reveal it.

    More plea to emotional rhetoric ignored.
    This was a choice you made. Placing terrorists temporary health above innocent civilians.



    Fourth attempt to the 'what if' mentality of so called 'compassionate' Conservatives. Here zimmer. I'll give you a tip. Why don't you provide some sort of evidence that torture does work other then the obviously unbiased resourceful 'Waterboarding.org' who depends on hearsay from unverifiable sources to make it's argument. Till then here's a tissue :
    See above. Pt. 1


    Go cry about those we might be able to save because of torture to somebody else.
    Phew. To me that's a sick mentality. Spare a terrorists so innocent people can be maimed or perish.

    How humane.
    Last edited by zimmer; 01-24-09 at 03:11 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  8. #88
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Phew. To me that's a sick mentality. Spare a terrorists so innocent people can be maimed or perish.

    How humane.
    Are terrorists not people, too? Or are you a proponent of such logic as "Well they do it, we might as well do it too"? Hold yourself and your country to a higher standard.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Are terrorists not people, too? Or are you a proponent of such logic as "Well they do it, we might as well do it too"? Hold yourself and your country to a higher standard.
    They are terrorists. Rabid dogs cloaked in a human facade.

    If innocent lives can be saved through professional coercion, if that is the last alternative, I believe it to be moral to put that individual through temporary discomfort of pain and-or drugs to get that info.

    Anything else is immoral.
    For that reason, the option should be on the table.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  10. #90
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    They are terrorists. Rabid dogs cloaked in a human facade.
    Your disregard for human suffering puts you in to that category as well. Here, have a treat.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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