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Thread: Obama - U.S. will not torture

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Hey, since 9/11/01 the USA has not suffered an attack on US Soil.

    Let's see if the "new and nicer way" of Obama has similar results. Should AQ or another ITG hit the USA, it's not a ding on Obama, two hits and well... Bush was right.

  2. #22
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Well the fact is that the situations you are talking about are extremely rare, this isn't 24 or Die Hard it is real life.

    Two wrongs don't make a right as the ancient wisdom says and there seems little more important now than that Western civilisation retains something of its former chivalry and does not degenerate into barbarism. You position is immoral and foolish because you would speed up such a degeneration and make any victory a defeat. That is immoral, the means shape the ends and that must always be remember.

    The health of the terrorist in this case is not paramount.
    If you make it illegal, you make it illegal for all situations. And then you have the scenario I illustrated and got vilified for. Primo, Secondo...

    Some Patriot will have to answer to the courts for protecting innocent civilians.

    There was nothing wrong with the way things were. We don't torture, but the option should be left open.

    It seems the Obama pacifists are writing the operating procedures.

    Marylin:
    When some bit of polite society gets taken out, and we had a man that could have delivered the goods, but instead was sitting in a cell with his lawyer laughing his ass off... I don't want to hear about "connecting-the-dots" or any other such nonsense. But we know the pacifists will be the first pointing fingers of blame to cover their asses, just as they did post 9-11.

    Isn't that why the Democrats voted to authorize Bush with force to go into Iraq? Because they were in the political slaughter house with their backs against the wall for previous sins and did not have the courage of their convictions to vote "No"?
    Last edited by zimmer; 01-23-09 at 10:16 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  3. #23
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by GarzaUK View Post
    There is almost infinite examples in all of human history that torture does not work.
    Except when it does work.

    What a dishonest person you are or at least ignorant of history.
    Uh, you're the only one dealing in dishonesty.

    I mean, you could argue that there are sub-torture techniques that are as effective but not nearly as ethically, morally, and legally problemmatic as torture. You could argue that torture can ellicit unreliable information. You could argue that torture is not always an effective interrogative technique.

    But you cannot argue that torture does not work.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Sorting through the revelations is all part of the job. There are trained professionals sifting it.

    In a pinch, when it could cost scores of lives, I'll take an American Patriot shoving bamboo under someone's finger nails to get some info... quick like. That would be the Primo, as Secondo they could go a little more medieval, and carry on from there.

    Of course they'd end up in court having to explain why they wanted to save American lives so badly. It just might happen to some unfortunate patriot one day.
    That's the John McCain amendment in a nutshell. Direct interrogators not to torture but do so with a wink and a nod with the understanding that at that critical ticking bomb moment they can torture and rely on the good will of Americans not to judge the interrogator guilty. Absurd, ain't it...

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    One captain fired a round near the ear of a captured terrorist in Iraq a few years ago, and what did the terrorist do? Gave info that saved American GI's lives.

    Remember that?
    So what's the ration to true information vs. false information that you get from torture? And does the possibility of getting one piece of true information justify the use of torture; of which there will be occasion of innocent people being tortured if you make it a common policy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    This is the typical Lib response too.
    No. It's called a sensible response to a biased source being passed off as proof of your own bias. But I'll progress.

    If you had noticed the opening paragraph, it cites an ABC reporter. Not good enough for you?
    Not really. It's hearsay in the context that argument was given. He heard it from his sources.

    My guess is you didn't get that far.

    TILT!

    Try again.
    Here. Zimmer. I'll give you a clue of why waterboarding torture doesn't work :

    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

    Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea
    Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."
    An up-to-date illustration of the colonel's point appeared in recently released FBI documents from the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. These show, among other things, that some military intelligence officers wanted to use harsher interrogation methods than the FBI did. As a result, complained one inspector, "every time the FBI established a rapport with a detainee, the military would step in and the detainee would stop being cooperative." So much for the utility of torture.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Why didn't we use torture during WWII?
    Is it because the WWII people were liberal pansies fighting a wussy enemy?

    Even if 'torture' 'works' sometimes, that's hardly a ringing endorsement of it. Even a little poking around in shows that it's not a recommended route to go when one wants accurate reliable information.
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    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Hey, since 9/11/01 the USA has not suffered an attack on US Soil.
    This is because I finally changed my underwear. It's absolute proof that changing my underwear prevents terrorist attacks.
    I may be wrong.

  9. #29
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    This is because I finally changed my underwear. It's absolute proof that changing my underwear prevents terrorist attacks.
    God damn, finally someone understands the concept of specious reasoning. I knew someone else had to know about this. Fact is that we didn't suffer a lot from terrorist attacks on our soil, they happened every once in awhile but not with great frequency. So we're not even outside one standard deviation and people proclaim this as good. For the love of all that is holy, would these people please take a few science and statistics courses. You have to get a few sigma away before you can state anything with confidence, and you have to be able to prove causality. Just being within the standard time between terrorist attacks doesn't mean a law has worked. And guess what? We're gonna have another terrorist attack here at some point. It will happen, while there are things we can do (reasonable) to lower the rate, that rate will never be zero. Deal with it. No reason that we should start sacrificing our freedom and liberty for "safety".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #30
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I was just about to source that here, but you beat me to it. Those people being quoted on torture are former military personnel who have actually interrogated people during wartime. While the torture mongers get their ideas from James Bond.

    Yeah, you might get lucky once in a while and actually get some good information, but:

    1. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
    2. If they give accurate information under torture, they would have given it without torture. (sourced above)

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