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Thread: Obama - U.S. will not torture

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Fool, torture does work. It has resulted in deriving accurate and reliable information.

    The problem here is you. You are too stupid to recognize that stating a simple fact is not an endorsement. I have stated that as well as zimmer.

    So wtf is your problem? Are you just ignorant or are you deliberately ignoring what we're actually presenting?
    Really? Go ahead and show me how stupid I am, provide me one instance where torture has worked.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Really? Go ahead and show me how stupid I am, provide me one instance where torture has worked.
    It worked for Saddam Hussein.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  3. #113
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    So you consider saving a few lives is more important than the moral standing of our nation?
    Absolutely. I believe the short term health of a terrorist can be compromised to save lives, pain and suffering.

    What's the low cut off point for you? 1000? 100? 10? 5? 1? should we torture if it will save one life?
    Above my pay grade... LOL
    Terrorists don't set out to kill One. That's assasination. To accomplish this they'd have to take our more individuals. Like at the Pentagon, and what people understand a plane set for the Capitol.

    Their MO has been maximum damage, whether it's been in Turkey, Africa, Indonesia, London, Madrid or NY.

    Added to the above, each situation is unique.

    Are you consistent with that life saving or does it only apply to torture?
    ? Huh?

    Are you against smoking and drinking... more people die from accidents in their home every year than the 3000 who died on 9/11...
    Yes, but those are accidents, not the result of terrorists.
    I think some on your side are a wee bit disappointed at their team's defense on this.

    It is simple: I believe torture is permissible if it will save lives from a terrorist attack. I believe it is immoral to allow innocent civilians be killed and maimed from terrorist attacks that could be otherwise prevented by softening up the terrorist through coercive means. He will heal, the innocents killed will not.

    Waterboarding should be a tool in the interrogation tool kit; not considered tortue.
    Last edited by zimmer; 01-27-09 at 03:47 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It worked for Saddam Hussein.
    No it didn't.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Absolutely. I believe the short term health of a terrorist can be compromised to save lives, pain and suffering.
    You meant to say the short term health of a human being, right? Because, you first have to prove that he's a terrorist and that he's involved in some plot. But suppose that human doesn't have the information? How long should he be tortured before that is determined? Eventually he will tell you anything you want to hear.

    Above my pay grade... LOL
    Terrorists don't set out to kill One. That's assasination. To accomplish this they'd have to take our more individuals. Like at the Pentagon, and what people understand a plane set for the Capitol.
    I'm not asking you to implement a law I'm asking your opinion.

    ? Huh?
    I'm asking if your views of death are consistent. Obviously not.
    Yes, but those are accidents, not the result of terrorists.
    I think some on your side are a wee bit disappointed at their team's defense on this.
    Death is death, regardless of how you were killed you're still dead. Dead from slipping in the tub is just as dead as being blown up. You apparently don't get the idea of consistent values. Either you value life or you don't. You're probably for the death penalty too.

    It is simple: I believe torture is permissible if it will save lives from a terrorist attack. I believe it is immoral to allow innocent civilians be killed and maimed from terrorist attacks that could be otherwise prevented by softening up the terrorist through coercive means. He will heal, the innocents killed will not.
    As I have stated many times in the past and am reaffirmed here regularly, conservatives lack the ability to empathize.

    Waterboarding should be a tool in the interrogation tool kit; not considered tortue.
    Why stop at water boarding? Oh, that's right, you don't. Wasn't it you that made the bamboo under the fingernails comment?

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Its a new day in America...and what a refreshing change of pace:

    Yahoo!



    Finally a President who will return integrity to the Country.
    Read the fine print. Torture WILL continue. Maybe not exactlyas it was but it ain't goin' nowhere.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It worked for Saddam Hussein.
    Actually, if i remember correctly. He gave up more information to the interrogator that sat down, smoked a cig, and asked him about what his take on the issue was.... for what, 3 weeks untill Saddam finally got comfortable enough to let it all out?

    Not saying that torture doesnt work. Just didn't happen to be the case here.
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    Don't apologize to me over that silly ****. I could care less if I can see the dust or not.
    Now apologize for apologizing!

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Dr. Doom has planted a ticking time bomb in the middle of a metropolis. You have Dr. Doom in custody, time is ticking, but he's not talking. What do you do? This is a favorite hypothetical scenario because it illustrates the utilitarian view that torture is not always black and white. But look at all the assumptions:

    1. It's assumed that we know a bomb is ticking. Somehow we have learned that there is a plot to blow up a city, and that only one piece of information (the override codes) can possibly disrupt this plot.
    2. It's assumed that Dr. Doom knows the override codes we need, and that we know that he knows them. Somehow we've learned enough about this plot to know - with enough certainty that we're willing to torture - who is involved and who knows what.
    3. It's assumed that Dr. Doom will provide accurate information under torture, rather than stalling with bad information, and it will be timely enough to shut down the bomb safely before it blows.
    4. It's assumed that Dr. Doom will not provide the accurate and timely information under any other circumstance besides torture.

    Putting it all together, it seems to me you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than to run across such a clear-cut case for torture as this in the real world.

    Furthermore, it's a false dilemma to suggest that the only two choices are tortured intelligence or no intelligence. There is some good evidence that empathetic interrogation is overwhelmingly the most successful:

    In [Army Col. Stuart Herrington's] experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

    In 1943, Budiansky explained, Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran had published a report, now considered a classic among military interrogators. Based on a study of efforts to get Japanese POWs to talk during World War II, it reached a surprising conclusion: “successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.” Despite dealing with hostile subjects and alien cultures, the interrogators Moran studied had been able to successfully extract information without torturing their prisoners.

    Truth Extraction - The Atlantic (June 2005)
    And there is good evidence that torture can actually be counterproductive if you're under a time crunch for information:

    Moran's whole approach—and Hans Joachim Scharff's, too—was built on the assumption that few if any prisoners are likely to possess decisive information about imminent plans. (And as one former Marine interrogator says, even if a prisoner does have information of the "ticking bomb" variety—where the nuke is going to go off an hour from now, in the classic if overworked example—under duress or torture he is most likely to try to run out the clock by making something up rather than reveal the truth.) Rather, it is the small and seemingly inconsequential bits of evidence that prisoners may give away once they start talking—about training, weapons, commanders, tactics—that, when assembled into a larger mosaic, build up the most complete and valuable picture of the enemy's organization, intentions, and methods.

    Truth Extraction - The Atlantic (June 2005)

    Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)
    Nevermind the ethics of torture or how it affects our standing in the world, these quotes show that the core reasoning behind using torture is flawed. The overall goal is to quickly gain accurate intelligence. Torture as a means of achieving that goal is very rarely reliable, and is sometimes even counterproductive.

    Sure there are exceptions, just like a broken clock is right twice a day. As for KSM, it's obvious to me that he started talking after being waterboarded. But unless the above techniques were tried first, and an honest attempt at using them failed, it can hardly be said with much certainty that torture was the only way to get him to talk.

  9. #119
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Fool, torture does work. It has resulted in deriving accurate and reliable information.
    It has also failed to derive accurate and reliable information... So where are we now?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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