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Thread: Obama - U.S. will not torture

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I don't think torture works or doesn't work. Clearly it can make people admit things that are true and not true. The problem is knowing the difference.

    I welcome this development. I believe that one should always fight with chivalry and as a Gentlemen and torture violates that in my mind.
    While I admire your integrity in this specific area I think that's a little outdated... by more than 100 years. I believe, as you do that torture both works and doesn't. Where we differ is that, I believe we should not resort to lowering our humanity on the chance that we can get actionable intel from torture. Could torture produce results that save lives? Maybe, but when you are trying to show the world you are better than X and that you lead by example, some times sacrifices must be made to maintain your position and show that the least common denominator cannot force the rest to come down to their level.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Sorting through the revelations is all part of the job. There are trained professionals sifting it.

    In a pinch, when it could cost scores of lives, I'll take an American Patriot shoving bamboo under someone's finger nails to get some info... quick like. That would be the Primo, as Secondo they could go a little more medieval, and carry on from there.

    Of course they'd end up in court having to explain why they wanted to save American lives so badly. It just might happen to some unfortunate patriot one day.
    So you consider saving a few lives is more important than the moral standing of our nation? What's the low cut off point for you? 1000? 100? 10? 5? 1? should we torture if it will save one life? Are you consistent with that life saving or does it only apply to torture? Are you against smoking and drinking... more people die from accidents in their home every year than the 3000 who died on 9/11...

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You see, my rationale is simple. I believe it is immoral for thousands to die because you have a terrorist in you hands that may hold the key to saving their lives.

    If professional coercion is required, so be it. His choice.

    You prefer to protect the temporary health of the terrorist.
    I prefer to protect the lives of thousands or more of innocent citizens.

    I think your choice is nothing short of immoral.
    What if the person doesn't actually have the info and now you've tortured an innocent person. Are you against that or is that a "casualty of war, like being killed as an American Military Service Member?

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Hey, since 9/11/01 the USA has not suffered an attack on US Soil.

    Let's see if the "new and nicer way" of Obama has similar results. Should AQ or another ITG hit the USA, it's not a ding on Obama, two hits and well... Bush was right.
    ridiculous. The planet wasn't destroyed by a comet either, do we credit Bush for that? oh I know you're going to say, but what did Bush do to prevent that from happening? And I say, nothing. What did Bush do to prevent another attack on US soil? Started a war in Iraq? Made an ass of himself by puttin on spurs and making all sorts of cowboy threats? In other words, he did nothing that would actually make us any safer. The proof is that you can still sneak across our borders.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    People who believe torture works only believe so because they are weak and are drawing conclusions based on their own weakness. They think torture would work because they know it wouldn't take much to get them to give up their mother. They then project that weakness on everyone one else.

    Hows that you pansy ass torture advocates?

  6. #106
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    So you consider saving a few lives is more important than the moral standing of our nation?
    Moral standing? You think waterboarding three people legitmately undermines US moral superiority? Bwahahahahahahaaaaaaa!

    On what basis can you draw such a conclusion?

  7. #107
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    People who believe torture works only believe so because they are weak and are drawing conclusions based on their own weakness. They think torture would work because they know it wouldn't take much to get them to give up their mother. They then project that weakness on everyone one else.

    Hows that you pansy ass torture advocates?
    Fool, torture does work. It has resulted in deriving accurate and reliable information.

    The problem here is you. You are too stupid to recognize that stating a simple fact is not an endorsement. I have stated that as well as zimmer.

    So wtf is your problem? Are you just ignorant or are you deliberately ignoring what we're actually presenting?

  8. #108
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    We use less barbaric methods of extraction. Do not play dumb, we both know that they exist.
    Oh, please. You people have, for years now, argued that using females to interrogate Muslims or stress positions or using dogs constitutes torture. What you have failed to do is actually id what is permissable. In fact, you've worked your asses off only on telling us what is not permissable.

    Yeah, I know alternative methods exist and are effective. As you plainly can see I am not advocating torture, so act dumb and pretend otherwise.

    For example, this Gitmo judge who recently said a detainee had been tortured, the standard she advanced would logically have a detainee stubbing his tow resulting in triggering a cardiac attack constituting torture. It's an idiotic standard and measure.

    I would imagine that I have a much firmer grasp on the true meaning of suffering than most people do.
    Maybe, but irrelevant.

    There is a difference in motive. At the most elementary level, though, the terrorist is an individual himself. Lowering yourself to the level of barbarism perpetuated by your enemies undermines all of the hard work that America has accomplished in setting itself up as a leader of the free world.
    Fool, waterboarding a single person one time in no way lowers the US to that of AQ or Pol Pot or Hitler or any other evil. You're engaging in disgusting moral equivalencies.

    Using physcially coercive methods doesn't remove the US as the leader of the free world. Hell, even engaging in isolated instances of torture wouldn't manage that.

    Are you people seriously going to argue that the US's moral standing relative to North Korea, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, China, et al is going to suffer because it waterboards actual terrorists?

    I guess you could get there if you want argue that waterboarding one actual terrorist is the equivalent of jailing tens of thousands of citizens (China), intentionally targetting civilians (Syria, Hezbollah), murdering via state policies hundreds of thousands of citizens (North Korea), violently cracks down on political dissidents, arming/funding terror groups (Iran).

    You're dealing in disgusting moral equivalencies.


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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Fool, torture does work. It has resulted in deriving accurate and reliable information.

    The problem here is you. You are too stupid to recognize that stating a simple fact is not an endorsement. I have stated that as well as zimmer.

    So wtf is your problem? Are you just ignorant or are you deliberately ignoring what we're actually presenting?
    Is there scientific data for that, or just Jack Bauer hearsay?

    They way I see it is can torture yield correct answers? Yes, it can result in accurate information. Will torture always 100% result in accurate information? Obviously no it won't. So what is the % of information you get which is accurate and usable? That's the real question, the one that seemingly is always avoided by the pro-torture side. Because the use of torture is abhorred, and can lead to negative consequence. It can lead to the torture of innocents, misinformation, etc. So you have to ask yourself, is it worth it. And in asking that question, it's not here's one time it worked evidence anymore. Now you need statistical evidence. If you can't prove that torture statistically yields correct answers more than incorrect answers; than I see little point in employing it as an option.

    I think personally that this is much like the death penalty. One the whole, it is endorsed by those seeking revenge over anything else.
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Moral standing? You think waterboarding three people legitmately undermines US moral superiority? Bwahahahahahahaaaaaaa!

    On what basis can you draw such a conclusion?
    That it's wrong and all civilized people agree that torture is wrong and that we are a nation of high moral standard and freedom and laws and that if we do anything that goes against those ideals we degrade our position. But I realize that you bullies don't view the world from a moral point of view since being a bully isn't moral to begin with.

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