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Thread: Obama - U.S. will not torture

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Your disregard for human suffering puts you in to that category as well. Here, have a treat.
    It is all in an effort to stop human suffering.

    You my friend, have no regard for innocent life. You would prefer to spare a terrorist temporary discomfort and allow hundreds, thousand, millions to die.

    Your answer is a Dukakis moment.

    Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?

    DUKAKIS: No, I don't,...
    May I call you Dukakis?
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It is all in an effort to stop human suffering.
    Causing human suffering to relieve human suffering accomplishes nothing.

    You my friend, have no regard for innocent life. You would prefer to spare a terrorist temporary discomfort and allow hundreds, thousand, millions to die.
    Temporary discomfort? Your naivete is showing. When have we had someone in interrogation who held information that could have saved thousands or millions of lives, and we let those people die because we did not use torture?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Temporary discomfort? Your naivete is showing. When have we had someone in interrogation who held information that could have saved thousands or millions of lives, and we let those people die because we did not use torture?
    PFFT! We see that all the time......on TV.

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Causing human suffering to relieve human suffering accomplishes nothing.

    Temporary discomfort? Your naivete is showing. When have we had someone in interrogation who held information that could have saved thousands or millions of lives, and we let those people die because we did not use torture?
    Torture works. Not perfectly, but it works. People are "broken". I've cited cases here, so let's get that fact straight. You might not like it because it blows your theory to shreds... but it works.

    Now, causing one individual some suffering vs. hundreds, thousands, millions dead and suffering accomplishes nothing? One in discomfort vs. Innocent dead? Nothing?

    Sorry, does not compute. Your result is immoral.
    Last edited by zimmer; 01-24-09 at 04:23 PM.
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Torture works.
    Wrong again. Quoting the CIA Director, who was under Bush's thumb, does not pass for evidence. Next are you going to quote Tenet?

    Next?
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Wrong again. Quoting the CIA Director, who was under Bush's thumb, does not pass for evidence. Next are you going to quote Tenet?

    Next?
    It is absolutely ridiculous to say torture does not work. 0% success rate? Hell one Khalid Sheikh Mohammed coughed up vital info. So it has worked vunderfully during the war on terror.

    The argument is really one of is it moral? The answer is yes, if it's the last resort and will save lives. To do otherwise would be immoral.

    Waterboarding Success Stories: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Library Tower | waterboarding.org
    ABC News reporter Brian Ross credited waterboarding for the crucial information used to avert the destruction of Library Tower.

    ROSS: That has happened in some cases where the material that's been given has not been accurate, has been essentially to stop the torture. In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Library Tower.
    The Clintons are what happens...
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    It is absolutely ridiculous to say torture does not work. 0% success rate? Hell one Khalid Sheikh Mohammed coughed up vital info. So it has worked vunderfully during the war on terror.

    The argument is really one of is it moral? The answer is yes, if it's the last resort and will save lives. To do otherwise would be immoral.

    Waterboarding Success Stories: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Library Tower | waterboarding.org
    A visiting US counter-terrorism specialist, Malcolm Nance, said in Sydney that elements of Mr Bush's account seemed odd. He said shoe bombs would typically be used to blow up an aircraft in midair, rather than breach the cockpit door of a passenger jet.

    Rohan Gunaratna, head of terrorism research at the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies in Singapore, also downplayed Mr Bush's claims.

    He said intelligence reports had confirmed that a leading member of Jemaah Islamiah, Hambali, was asked to assist hijack plots but the plans to target California never progressed past "the very early stages".
    Bush seizes on al-Qaeda plot to hit Los Angeles - World - smh.com.au
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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Torture works. Not perfectly, but it works. People are "broken". I've cited cases here, so let's get that fact straight. You might not like it because it blows your theory to shreds... but it works.

    Now, causing one individual some suffering vs. hundreds, thousands, millions dead and suffering accomplishes nothing? One in discomfort vs. Innocent dead? Nothing?

    Sorry, does not compute. Your result is immoral.
    Your avoidance of my question has been noted.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Your disregard for human suffering puts you in to that category as well. Here, have a treat.
    I see, so we should avoid inflicting any pain, some pain, a lot of pain on terrorists because to inflict such pain would impose some level of suffering. Okay.

    But then, what about the innocent civilians that are targetted by terrorists who will suffer and will die?

    You're not a decisionmaker and you're not responsible for public safety, so I can see how easy it is for you talk in such abstracts about human suffering.

    Me, otoh, I acknowledge that elected officials have a duty to protect the public and as such that duty to his constituents is far greater than his duty not to inflict some level of pain on a person seeking to kill his constituents.

    Do you feel that there is no difference between a terrorist seeking to kill civilians and those civilians at risk of being killed by said terrorist?

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    Re: Obama - U.S. will not torture

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I see, so we should avoid inflicting any pain, some pain, a lot of pain on terrorists because to inflict such pain would impose some level of suffering. Okay.

    But then, what about the innocent civilians that are targetted by terrorists who will suffer and will die?
    We use less barbaric methods of extraction. Do not play dumb, we both know that they exist.

    You're not a decisionmaker and you're not responsible for public safety, so I can see how easy it is for you talk in such abstracts about human suffering.
    I would imagine that I have a much firmer grasp on the true meaning of suffering than most people do.

    Do you feel that there is no difference between a terrorist seeking to kill civilians and those civilians at risk of being killed by said terrorist?
    There is a difference in motive. At the most elementary level, though, the terrorist is an individual himself. Lowering yourself to the level of barbarism perpetuated by your enemies undermines all of the hard work that America has accomplished in setting itself up as a leader of the free world.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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