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Thread: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    That's not what the poster I was replying to was using. He brought in the whole "life" argument which I would categorize as an emotional argument.
    You didn't read it thoroughly, then.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I love how you people have reduced legit ethical and moral questions into simple emotional impulses.

    I just have to wonder, though, if you people believe that ethics and morality play no role, why does the US not have a eugenics regime? I mean, you liberals, errr, progressives, were all about eugenics back in the day...what happened? Why is the US not permitting the harvesting of organs from death row inmates? Why is the US not permitting babies born with defects to be killed in the moments after delivery? Are you telling me that these policies have not ethical and moral foundation to them?

    You guys are being completely intellectually dishonest here. The issue is whether the federal government should be subsidizing this research with public dollars. This is a public policy debate. While science informs policy debate, it is not and never has been a determining policy factor. Consequently, not only does scientific considerations become involved in the debate, but also fiscal responsibilities, ethical and moral considerations, legal responsibilities, etc.

    Please stop pretending that our nation is led by the nose by scientists...or that we have a preference for such leadership.
    It's so much easier to judge people when you judge them as a whole rather than on an individual basis, isn't it? I've not once stated a single thing on eugenics or babies with birth defects, so don't try to create arguments out of thin air just because you can't prove that your argument isn't emotional.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You didn't read it thoroughly, then.
    Yes, I did. The poster was criticizing me because I don't value life enough.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    And you're telling me that isn't an emotional argument?
    No, I am not telling you that. I was arguing that the pro-ESCR argument is an emotional one based only on appeal to a promise to help suffering individuals. I was arguing that ethical and moral considerations are proper in the public policy debate. I am arguing that there are existing and successful alternatives to destroying embryoes to harvest embryonic stem cells that avoid those ethical and moral problems. I am arguing that the indisputable success of adult stem cell research and that finite federal budget resources mitigate pouring even more federal dollars into ESCR relying on destroying embryoes.

    This is not an emotional argument.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Yes, I did. The poster was criticizing me because I don't value life enough.
    The whole 1st paragraph was concerning the INVALID claim that the "research" yields anything valid at all. The rest of it was about the false claim that ethics are not a reasonable reason to abandon a course of "scientific" study. --not specifically the life issue, although in this case that is the ethical question. S/he closed connecting the idea that it is both a fruitless "research" and a legitimate ethical concern. Read thoroughly. Close reading.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    No need to insult me. I know the difference, and am not mischaracterizing anything. Fact is, Bush DID place limitations on stem cell research, which is what I originally said, although I did not specify the nature of his limitations. You said he didn't. Embryonic stem cells happen to the the important stems cells here, as you can't do as much with non-embryonic stem cells. The embryonic stem cell lines that Bush allowed researchers to keep were not very good lines at all, and practically worthless. With the change in policy comes the opening up of ALL embryonic stem cell lines.
    Oh my goodness...

    Bush only imposed fed funding restrictions on ESCR, not stem cell research.

    And I cannot believe that you're arguing that "you can't do as much with non-embryonic stem cells." And I cannot believe someone thanked you for arguing as such. Despite your false assertion that we cannot do much with non-embryonic stem cells we have seen nearly a hundred medical treatments derived from non-embryonic stem cells. How many from embryonic stem cells? Well? What? Zero? Your argument is garbage and it is ignorant.

    Obama's reversal of Bush's restrictions does not "opening up of ALL embryonic stem cell lines." It simply means that federal funding may be used to fund embryonic stem cell lines that were created after 2001 when Bush imposed the restriction. Meanwhile, in the real world, new embryonic stem cell lines have been created all over the US and the world.

    Please don't pretend that the restrictions on fed funding of ESCR caused ESCR to stop. During this time Cali has fronted several billion public dollars while other states have also promised public subsidies for ESCR, multiple private/public financing ventures involving Harvard and Stanford have arisen, and there are dozens of private firms conducting ESCR.

    Obama's policy reversal only affects the expenditure of federal dollars.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    wasn't it found that adult stem cells were just as good anyway? I don't know, I'm not well read on the subject; but I thought there was a study using the two different types and they found that they were rather similar. If so, isn't it problem solved? Though maybe the issue comes in quantity. Don't know the answer to that one off hand either.
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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    It's so much easier to judge people when you judge them as a whole rather than on an individual basis, isn't it? I've not once stated a single thing on eugenics or babies with birth defects, so don't try to create arguments out of thin air just because you can't prove that your argument isn't emotional.
    My argument ain't an emotional one. It's based on the factors I cited above. If you are willing to pretend that I am relying only on emotion, well, I cannot reason out of you what not reasoned in in the first place.

    Secondly, I presented to you questions about post-delivery abortions and eugenics because your argument is that ethical and moral considerations have no place in science or public policy. That is obviously false given that scientists themselves resists conducting ethical problemmatic research and government policy has made it impermissable to conduct such research. The US does not permit eugenics explicitly because of the ethical and moral hazards associated with it. The US does not permit medical experimentation on death row inmates and prisoners of war explicitly because of the ethical and moral hazards associated with such research.

    In other words, ethical and moral considerations have a proper place in our public discourse no matter that you pretend otherwise.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Though maybe the issue comes in quantity. Don't know the answer to that one off hand either.
    Like many things---at its core, it's about money...and you know what they say about the love of money...

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    wasn't it found that adult stem cells were just as good anyway? I don't know, I'm not well read on the subject; but I thought there was a study using the two different types and they found that they were rather similar. If so, isn't it problem solved? Though maybe the issue comes in quantity. Don't know the answer to that one off hand either.

    No, nt that they are similar. The two cell types behave differently. However, recent research has demonstrated that adult stem cells can be reprogrammed to behave as embryonic stem cells can. Yet, another reason to mitigate against using public dollars to subsidize ethicall and morally hazardous research when alternatives exist which do not have similar ethical and moral hazards associated with it.

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