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Thread: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

  1. #31
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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Why? Is Science not meant to benefit humanity? Morality should govern science otherwise humanity will be lost in this "progression".
    Science is absolutely meant to benefit humanity. This is precisely why we shouldn't let morality dictate our decisions in science. Like I said, they should be taken into consideration, but shouldn't be allowed to stand in the way of progress because morality differs from person to person. I also think there are varying degrees of moral objections. In this particular case I think people are going overboard by acting like an embryonic cell is a living person. And I fail to see how humanity could get lost to progression. That sounds silly to me.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You asked me "Why????" You are right--I ask "Why not???"
    I bookmarked this so I'll get back to you on that. It is time for me to make up beds, do laundry and go to happy hour

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I bookmarked this so I'll get back to you on that. It is time for me to make up beds, do laundry and go to happy hour
    You've got that in reverse order.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    That's for the scientists to decide.

    The removal of the ban does not mean more money is spent (as you falsely assert), it just means money can be allocated for ESCR.

    If appropriators determine ESCR is not worth the money then they won't allocate money toward it. No one is forcing money into ESCR. Obama is simply allowing money to be spent on ESCR if appropriators wish to.
    There is a strong lobby to do the unnecessary and unneeded to placate and salve the "feelings" of those suffering horrible afflictions. There's another "appeal to emotion" on the pro-killing embryos" side of the debate.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Science is absolutely meant to benefit humanity. This is precisely why we shouldn't let morality dictate our decisions in science. Like I said, they should be taken into consideration, but shouldn't be allowed to stand in the way of progress because morality differs from person to person. I also think there are varying degrees of moral objections. In this particular case I think people are going overboard by acting like an embryonic cell is a living person. And I fail to see how humanity could get lost to progression. That sounds silly to me.
    Basically you are arguing for the morality of scientific progression, oh the irony. Morality has a lot to do with our civilisation and science should be made a wholesome and not destructive part of our civilisation which itself shapes science.

    Humanity can get lost in scientific progression when science is not made to serve the needs of humanity and society, particularly when it is held up as some sort of secular god.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Embryonic stem cells. Not adult stem cells. Please try to get the terminology correct. Opponents of Bush's funding policy have deliberately mischaracterized Bush's policy as restricting stem cell research generally when, in fact, Bush's policy permitted using fed funds on existing embryonic stem cell lines and restricting fed funding on new embryonic stem cell lines.

    There's are important distinctions between embryonic and non-embryonic stem cell research and the policy implications of each. The way you drafted your initial post completely blurred those distinctions.
    No need to insult me. I know the difference, and am not mischaracterizing anything. Fact is, Bush DID place limitations on stem cell research, which is what I originally said, although I did not specify the nature of his limitations. You said he didn't. Embryonic stem cells happen to the the important stems cells here, as you can't do as much with non-embryonic stem cells. The embryonic stem cell lines that Bush allowed researchers to keep were not very good lines at all, and practically worthless. With the change in policy comes the opening up of ALL embryonic stem cell lines.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Humanity can get lost in scientific progression when science is not made to serve the needs of humanity and society, particularly when it is held up as some sort of secular god.
    I don't consider science a god by any stretch. And science can serve the needs of humanity while remaining secular. The problem with religion (Christianity in this instance) is that they feel the need to instill their beliefs into all facets of life even if they have no place there. I would have no problem with religion if it could keep to itself and not try to influence everything from legislation, science, what is considered obscenity, etc. There are many people in this country from a wide variety of cultures and belief systems. Their opinions should be heard just as much as Christians are. This only underlines the fact that science needs to be kept secular.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Science is absolutely meant to benefit humanity.
    Benefits like... the atom bomb, VX gas and weaponized pathogens?

    Science, like many other things, isn't inherently beneficial or detrimental -- its what you -do- with it.

    This is precisely why we shouldn't let morality dictate our decisions in science. Like I said, they should be taken into consideration, but shouldn't be allowed to stand in the way of progress because morality differs from person to person.
    The definition of "progress", like morality, differs from person to person, and, often, for the same reasons. There's no sound argument that someone's definition of progress should be allowed to trample someone's defintion of morality.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    I don't consider science a god by any stretch. And science can serve the needs of humanity while remaining secular. The problem with religion (Christianity in this instance) is that they feel the need to instill their beliefs into all facets of life even if they have no place there. I would have no problem with religion if it could keep to itself and not try to influence everything from legislation, science, what is considered obscenity, etc. There are many people in this country from a wide variety of cultures and belief systems. Their opinions should be heard just as much as Christians are. This only underlines the fact that science needs to be kept secular.
    The problem is that all men operate on what can called be "metaprinciples" ie spiritual, ethical and metaphysical beliefs including athiests and these cannot and should not be ruled out of discussions that includes human society and ethics. Society requires morality and science should serve society.

    As much as athiests and liberals like to pretend they are talking scientifically in these discussions they can't help but enter the realms of philosophy. Someone already mentioned the unconsciousness of embyros as a reason why killing them is okay, but that is not a fully scientific argument it includes ethical and spiritual ideas about personhood and rights and such.

    The strange thing is that some people don't think society shapes technology and ways of looking at science. They really should read their Lewis Mumford.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-21-09 at 05:15 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Benefits like... the atom bomb, VX gas and weaponized pathogens?

    Science, like many other things, isn't inherently beneficial or detrimental -- its what you -do- with it.
    It is also interestingly how you develop it. There are always many means and ways of developing ideas and usages and it is partly society that decides what is and isn't developed. Hence Hero of Alexandria's steam engine was not developed because the society of the time had all the cheap slave labour it needed and there was little use for it.

    We live in a very centralised society and so no surprise the centralised options tend to be ones developed by the large institutions like gov't and corporations that dominate our society.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-21-09 at 05:24 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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