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Thread: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

  1. #11
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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    So, the only arguments against ESCR or fed-funded ESCR that you have seen have rested only on "emotion" or "religious morals?"
    Yes.

    I have to ask then, is any argument that rests on a moral or ethical objection an illegitimate argument?
    Ethics and morals vary from person to person. If individuals wish to abolish ESCR, they should formulate a argument grounded in facts, not emotion or the Bible, if they wish to be taken seriously.


    There are now alternatives to destroying embryoes in pursuing ESCR, e.g., cord blood, cell reprogramming, and, as such, we can avoid all of the ethical and moral entanglements that come with destroying embryoes for scientific research.
    There's no reason why we cannot use all of the resources we have in our quest to eliminate illness in already living beings.

    Yes, these are ethical and moral problems that I have with such research. You can disagree and argue that such problems are outweighed by the promise of such research (and it remains only a decades-long promise), but don't simply dismiss it as illegitimate.
    I consider it illegitimate because you are opposed to ESCR and have yet to explain why it is wrong to take a nescient group of cells and use them to cure someone who is already alive. Again, what is your reason for opposing ESCR, besides the availability of alternatives?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Yes.
    Then I say that you have not been paying attention to the debate. Because they are non-emotional and non-religous arguments against fed-funded ESCR such as alternative methods of embryonic stem cell collection/creation, the current state of adult stem cell research, an argument against using scarce resources to fund research that had led to very little result while adult stem cell research has led to actual medical treatments, etc...

    Ethics and morals vary from person to person. If individuals wish to abolish ESCR, they should formulate a argument grounded in facts, not emotion or the Bible, if they wish to be taken seriously.
    Ethical considerations and moral bases do vary from one person to another, however, that doesn't invalidate any ethical or moral concern about such research.

    Let me ask you this...

    Do you perceive a line that should be crossed between creatng human embryoes for ESCR and creating human fetuses for ESCR? If so, on what basis does that line exist?

    There's no reason why we cannot use all of the resources we have in our quest to eliminate illness in already living beings.
    All things being equal, sure...but they're not. We have finite resources, i.e., finite government dollars to spend.

    I consider it illegitimate because you are opposed to ESCR and have yet to explain why it is wrong to take a nescient group of cells and use them to cure someone who is already alive.
    I have no obligation to present such an argument as there is no currently available medical treatment derived from ESCR in which to apply and cure someone who is already alive.

    Again, what is your reason for opposing ESCR, besides the availability of alternatives?
    What, the availability of alternatives to using embryoes created specifically and only for research purposes ain't a good enough argument opposing the creation of emberyoes for you address? Even you must acknowledge that, while you consider them illegitimate, that there are ethical and moral concerns attached to the creation of human embryoes for research purposes only and that these alternatives successfully avoid those concerns, no?

    Scarce resources that should be devoted to actual medical treatments derived from adult stem cell research rather than directing those scarce resources towards the mere promise of ESCR?

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    As one of his first acts, President Obama is going to repeal the Bush rule that barred Federal money being used to counsel women on abortion services. Obama is also repealing the Bush rule against Federal money being used for stem cell research.

    As far as Federal funding of stem cell research, that is a good decision. However, funding abortion services, IMHO, is wrong. Here is why:

    1) As far as abortion goes, I believe it should be legal in those states which want it, and illegal in those which don't. It is up to the states themselves, and none of the Federal government's business. This is the reason that I am opposed to Roe v. Wade, just as I am opposed to any effort to federally criminalize abortion.

    2) When you give Federal money for abortion counseling, you are essentially disrespecting the beliefs of those states which made abortion illegal. Yes, I am in favor of a woman's right to choose, but I would not dare to hit those who disagree with me over the head with my belief any more than I would agree with somebody hitting me over the head with a Bible and telling me I am going to hell.

    3) America is not a one size fits all nation. Different areas of the country have different beliefs, and they are entitled to them. Whether a state supports or bans abortion is, frankly, none of the Federal government's business.

    So, where do I stand in regard to Obama's decision today? On stem cell research, bravo. On Federal funding of abortionists, boo.

    Article is here.
    The issue was not stem cell research but embryonic stem cell research.
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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    BTW, EgOffTib, if you want to see emotional appeals in this debate look no further than your own statement here:

    why it is wrong to take a nescient group of cells and use them to cure someone who is already alive.
    Now, if that's not an emotional appeal I don't know what it is.

    Then, look at who the ESCR advocates trot out as their preferred spokesmen - Nancy Reagan, Michael J. Fox, Christopher Reeve, Mary Tyler Moore...and what are they pitching? Nothing more than an emotional appeal, subsidized by their own personal loss/conditions, to a promise of results. That's all ESCR has been...a promise.

    You cannot get around that fact.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    BTW, EgOffTib, if you want to see emotional appeals in this debate look no further than your own statement here:
    This is the full statement:

    I consider it illegitimate because you are opposed to ESCR and have yet to explain why it is wrong to take a nescient group of cells and use them to cure someone who is already alive.


    Please show me the emotional argument I seem to be making in that sentence.


    Now, if that's not an emotional appeal I don't know what it is.
    I noticed.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    This is the full statement:

    I consider it illegitimate because you are opposed to ESCR and have yet to explain why it is wrong to take a nescient group of cells and use them to cure someone who is already alive.


    Please show me the emotional argument I seem to be making in that sentence.
    Uh, the appeal to use said research to cure someone who is already alive. The emotional appeal is to the living person's worth relative to the worth (or lack thereof) of the potential for human life wrapped up in an embryo.

    Hell, you completely ignored the fact that no current treatment exists that was derived from ESCR. Kinda stealing an intellectual base there, no?

    BTW - ESCR is not "tak[ing] a nescient group of cells and use them to cure someone who is already alive".

    I noticed.
    If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it's probably a duck.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Uh, the appeal to use said research to cure someone who is already alive. The emotional appeal is to the living person's worth relative to the worth (or lack thereof) of the potential for human life wrapped up in an embryo.
    Living, breathing human beings take precedent over 100,000 cells. The cells are not cognizant, aware, conscious, etc. They do not have friends, responsibilities, cares, fears, aspirations. They are are as much alive as the grass on my lawn.

    Hell, you completely ignored the fact that no current treatment exists that was derived from ESCR. Kinda stealing an intellectual base there, no?
    Well I am personally willing to sacrifice some cells to find out.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Living, breathing human beings take precedent over 100,000 cells. The cells are not cognizant, aware, conscious, etc. They do not have friends, responsibilities, cares, fears, aspirations. They are are as much alive as the grass on my lawn.
    Do you always engage in debates with yourself? You're still stealing that intellectual base. If there were any medical treatments derived from ESCR I'd have more sympathy for your argument. As there are no successful therapies using embryonic stem cells, claims that prohibiting or limiting embryonic stem cell research will deprive those suffering from disease and disability of an opportunity for health, or "condemn them to an early death," are exaggerated and unsubstantiated. Such claims appeal to emotion rather than facts in attempting to sway public opinion and obtain research dollars.

    Well I am personally willing to sacrifice some cells to find out.
    Nice duck.

    BTW - we're talking about a collection of inert cells, but an embryo. You're diminishing the value of an embryo simply so you can label it as a collection of cells with no intrinsic value other than cells related to the human species. Emrbyoes are much greater than that. We're not talking about scraping adult stem cells from the inside of an individual's nose to use to treat major spine injuries (btw, this is an actual treatment derived from adult stem cells). That you dimiss it demonstrates that your argument is nothing other than an emotional appeal.

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Living, breathing human beings take precedent over 100,000 cells. The cells are not cognizant, aware, conscious, etc. They do not have friends, responsibilities, cares, fears, aspirations. They are are as much alive as the grass on my lawn.
    .
    This is a position built on philosophy and your own metaphysical, ethical and spiritual ideas. It is little different from one a Christian might put forward in this way.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama To Alter Abortion Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This is a position built on philosophy and your own metaphysical, ethical and spiritual ideas. It is little different from one a Christian might put forward in this way.
    I only wish I could presented it as you have here. Props!

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