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US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

5.) The ICJ ruled that the U.S. violated its obligations under the VC. But since the U.S. withdrew from the optional protocol, this ruling is non-binding. That does not change the fact that the U.S. is in violation of the VC. It only changes what can be done about it, which, from the ICJ's point of view, is nothing.

1. The US withdrew from the Optional Protocol AFTER the the case was decided in 2004, so that argument can't be used.

2. Even if the US were not a party to the Optional Protocol, it IS a party to the ICJ Statue.
 
I'm not the attorney here, it's not my job to find the state law. I'm merely pointing out that Art VI is not what many around here want it to say. Treaties and the Supreme law of the Land are not cut and dry as some may think. Nothing international nullifies the US Constitution and State laws.

How does this treaty obligation contradict the laws of any state?

Are you denying that the US is in violation of international law by not fulfilling its treaty obligations.

I have also noted that your side has dropped the "Congress didn't ratify it" line. In fact, your guys are now completely ignoring the fact that you were WRONG on that count.
 
How does this treaty obligation contradict the laws of any state?

Are you denying that the US is in violation of international law by not fulfilling its treaty obligations.

I have also noted that your side has dropped the "Congress didn't ratify it" line. In fact, your guys are now completely ignoring the fact that you were WRONG on that count.
I never made any argument about ratification, so don't group me. I only stated that Article VI is conditional, and therefore a treaty is not unquestionable. I don't know how it contradicts a Texas law, but I posed the possibility. Of course we should fulfill our treaty obligations, as long as they don't interfere with the Constitution and State laws.
 
I only stated that Article VI is conditional, and therefore a treaty is not unquestionable. I don't know how it contradicts a Texas law, but I posed the possibility.
It's a good point and should be considered, but again, without any reference to a Texas state law that contradicts the VC, the point is moot. There might be a Texas law that contradicts it, in which case what you're saying is valid. But without any evidence for it, it's no better than saying monkeys might fly out of your ass.
 
Shamelessly plagiarized from Wayne's World.
 
I never made any argument about ratification, so don't group me. I only stated that Article VI is conditional, and therefore a treaty is not unquestionable. I don't know how it contradicts a Texas law, but I posed the possibility. Of course we should fulfill our treaty obligations, as long as they don't interfere with the Constitution and State laws.

And I can't see how notifying a suspect of their rights and allowing them to contact Consul would violate the laws of Texas or any other state.
 
It should be noted that the U.S. has apologized for its mistake in not granting consular access to the individual who was convicted and later executed. That was a procedural error. However, it was not an error that compromised the defendant's access to due process.

In Medellín v. Texas (2007), the U.S. Supreme Court denied the petition to block the execution on a number of substantive grounds:

1) The Vienna Convention's language did not have the force of law--in other words, specific self-executing provisions--under which the domestic legal process would automatically be stopped or reversed were consular access mistakenly not provided.

2) Congress did not pass legislation that was enacted into law providing a specific remedy for such circumstances.

3) The defendant's confession was not obtained unlawfully.

4) The defendant was not deprived of adequate legal counsel.

Given the above findings, whatever one's position is on capital punishment, I don't believe the U.S. Supreme Court could have reached a different conclusion. Outside requests on the issue were, at best, properly treated as advisory in nature. Those making the requests lacked jurisdiction.

Indeed, were jurisdiction expanded to those bodies by the U.S. Supreme Court, it would have established a dangerous precedent that would have undermined the sovereignty of the U.S., eroded the preeminence of the U.S. Constitution, and diminished the role of U.S. representative government. In my opinion, that precedent would have been far more damaging, for the U.S. and any other sovereign state, than the political fallout that has resulted from the decision.

Personally, I would have preferred that adequate consular access had been provided and the error avoided. However, I believe the U.S. would have made a grave error had it effectively established a precedent that limited its sovereignty, reduced the paramount role of its Constitution as the ultimate source of its legal authority, and undermined the authority of its representative institutions by permitting an outside unelected body the ability to override authority that properly rests with the domestic institutions of a sovereign state.

All said, on this matter, even as I fully support Article 36 of the Vienna Convention, I would err on the side of preserving sovereign authority. That was the much larger and more important issue at stake.
 
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Are we done with this now? I think we've correctly concluded that Texas was correct.
 
It should be noted that the U.S. has apologized for its mistake in not granting consular access to the individual who was convicted and later executed. That was a procedural error. However, it was not an error that compromised the defendant's access to due process.

In Medellín v. Texas (2007), the U.S. Supreme Court denied the petition to block the execution on a number of substantive grounds:

1) The Vienna Convention's language did not have the force of law--in other words, specific self-executing provisions--under which the domestic legal process would automatically be stopped or reversed were consular access mistakenly not provided.

2) Congress did not pass legislation that was enacted into law providing a specific remedy for such circumstances.

3) The defendant's confession was not obtained unlawfully.

4) The defendant was not deprived of adequate legal counsel.

Given the above findings, whatever one's position is on capital punishment, I don't believe the U.S. Supreme Court could have reached a different conclusion. Outside requests on the issue were, at best, properly treated as advisory in nature. Those making the requests lacked jurisdiction.

Indeed, were jurisdiction expanded to those bodies by the U.S. Supreme Court, it would have established a dangerous precedent that would have undermined the sovereignty of the U.S., eroded the preeminence of the U.S. Constitution, and diminished the role of U.S. representative government. In my opinion, that precedent would have been far more damaging, for the U.S. and any other sovereign state, than the political fallout that has resulted from the decision.

Personally, I would have preferred that adequate consular access had been provided and the error avoided. However, I believe the U.S. would have made a grave error had it effectively established a precedent that limited its sovereignty, reduced the paramount role of its Constitution as the ultimate source of its legal authority, and undermined the authority of its representative institutions by permitting an outside unelected body the ability to override authority that properly rests with the domestic institutions of a sovereign state.

All said, on this matter, even as I fully support Article 36 of the Vienna Convention, I would err on the side of preserving sovereign authority. That was the much larger and more important issue at stake.
The SCOTUS ruling wasn't about whether the ICJ has jurisdiction over us, it was about whether we violated a treaty. They didn't have to rule on the ICJ's jurisdiction, since we withdrew from that protocol in 2005.

We signed a treaty in the 1960s, and as I understand it, because it was a non-self-executing treaty, part of our obligation was to establish domestic laws that would take care of those details. Obviously we didn't establish those laws, so the way I see it we violated the treaty right there. How am I mistaken?
 
The SCOTUS ruling wasn't about whether the ICJ has jurisdiction over us, it was about whether we violated a treaty.

The Supreme Court ruled on both issues. It specifically knocked down the petitioners' argument that rested "on the theory that either Congress or the Legislature of the State of Texas might determine that the actions of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) should be given controlling weight in determining that a violation of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations is grounds for vacating the sentence..." In other words, it was a legal theory that asserted that either Congress or the Texas Legislature would accept the ICJ's jurisdiction.

part of our obligation was to establish domestic laws that would take care of those details. Obviously we didn't establish those laws, so the way I see it we violated the treaty right there. How am I mistaken?

I made no suggestion that the U.S. was not in violation of the Vienna Convention. The failure to provide consular access was a violation of Article 36.

However, as the Convention did not provide self-executing language and Congress had not adopted laws setting forth specific consequences of a failure to provide consular access, the Supreme Court was left to determine whether the defendant had received due process. It could not reasonably have been expected to legislate where Congress had not done so, much less, develop specific legal remedies for a Convention that contained none with respect to the relevant issue.

The defendant received due process. As due process had been provided, the procedural defect did not rise to the level that required that the verdict reached on the substantive evidence of the case to be overturned.

The ICJ had no jurisdiction to require otherwise. Its latest criticism of the U.S. also has no substantive impact.

As I support Article 36 of the Vienna Convention, I very much hope that the current Congress will adopt appropriate legislation that creates a reasonable framework for addressing similar issues should they arise in the future. Otherwise, decisions in such cases will need to be judged strictly by whether they meet the legal standards as defined in the U.S. Constitution and its laws. The same would, of course, apply to any other sovereign state. The test would be whether the legal process met their own legal standards.

In the end, I believe treaties and agreements need a level of concreteness to address failures with respect to treaty/agreement obligations. As the Vienna Convention contained no such concreteness, the responsibility for the outcome rests not with the U.S. Supreme Court--it made the only decision it could given the facts of the case and circumstances associated with the Vienna Convention--but with the Vienna Convention's absence of a reasonable remedy for the situation that occurred.
 
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Would you be in favor of Americans being executed in other countries for breaking their laws? Just a question. I know the yelling and screaming when some Australian kid in Singapore got caught with weed in her bag. I can't really imagine the American outrage if something like this was done to our citizens.

Uhm there is a woman going through trial right now in Italy for murder that is an American citizen. America even shipped her back. Amanda Knox. So really, it does happen. When you go into another country, you are expected to follow their rules. You do not go into another country and expect them to follow yours. Much like the people coming into America and expecting them to speak their language instead of them learning the language already in place here.

There are consequences for your actions no matter where you go. Thinking you can go into another country and do heinous crimes and not be punished is ridiculous.
 
Are we done with this now? I think we've correctly concluded that Texas was correct.

You may have come to that conclusion. I have not. Texas violated the Vienna Convention. THis violation puts American credibility in question and U.S. citizens overseas at risk.
 
The SCOTUS ruling wasn't about whether the ICJ has jurisdiction over us, it was about whether we violated a treaty. They didn't have to rule on the ICJ's jurisdiction, since we withdrew from that protocol in 2005.

Actually, as I have noted, the original ICJ decision was in 2004, the year BEFORE the US withdrew from the Optional Protocol.

We signed a treaty in the 1960s, and as I understand it, because it was a non-self-executing treaty, part of our obligation was to establish domestic laws that would take care of those details. Obviously we didn't establish those laws, so the way I see it we violated the treaty right there. How am I mistaken?

You are absolutely correct. By its negligence, the Congress has put the US in a position where it has now violated a treaty to which it is a party through the Senate's ratification of said treaty.
 
Uhm there is a woman going through trial right now in Italy for murder that is an American citizen. America even shipped her back. Amanda Knox. So really, it does happen. When you go into another country, you are expected to follow their rules. You do not go into another country and expect them to follow yours. Much like the people coming into America and expecting them to speak their language instead of them learning the language already in place here.

There are consequences for your actions no matter where you go. Thinking you can go into another country and do heinous crimes and not be punished is ridiculous.

Does Amanda Knox have access to US officials in Italy? My guess is that she does because Italy recognizes its obligations under the Vienna Convention and customary international law.
 
You have been strangely quiet since I have provided proof that you are wrong on this claim.

I will take the sudden silence by Blackdog and others as a concession that the US was indeed in violation of its treaty obligations and thus of international law and that the ICJ decision was, in fact, the correct one.
 
Does Amanda Knox have access to US officials in Italy? My guess is that she does because Italy recognizes its obligations under the Vienna Convention and customary international law.

Is she being held because we are at war with Italy? No.
 
Are we at war with Mexico?

Wow
I really just did that. haha.

I meant to respond saying how Mexico doesn't give too ****s if someone we want is down there. They won't return them to us. They won't do **** about it. I'm also sure that if it were reversed Mexico would play ignorant. To be frank, the guy killed people here. He needed to be tried here. He broke laws of this country and then should suffer the consequences of his actions held to standards of this country. I do not sympathize with Mexico about this. And I am against the death penalty.
 
I meant to respond saying how Mexico doesn't give too ****s if someone we want is down there. They won't return them to us. They won't do **** about it. I'm also sure that if it were reversed Mexico would play ignorant.
Please see the U.S. Mexico Extradition Treaty.

To be frank, the guy killed people here. He needed to be tried here. He broke laws of this country and then should suffer the consequences of his actions held to standards of this country.
The standards of this country should involve honoring the treaties that we ratify, or else withdraw from them.
 
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I will take the sudden silence by Blackdog and others as a concession that the US was indeed in violation of its treaty obligations and thus of international law and that the ICJ decision was, in fact, the correct one.
You can stupidly believe that if you like, or you can believe that some of us are tired of this thread. Don't be arrogant.
 
You can stupidly believe that if you like, or you can believe that some of us are tired of this thread.
Yeah, it's soo tiring being proven wrong isn't it? :2razz:
 
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I will take the sudden silence by Blackdog and others as a concession that the US was indeed in violation of its treaty obligations and thus of international law and that the ICJ decision was, in fact, the correct one.

Wow a Little full of yourself are we? I have not responded to much of anything for days.

The US is not in violation of any treaty which can be legally enforced on our soil as has already been shown.

Now as soon as you become a member of the SCOTUS you will have weight behind your argument. Until then the only legal body that agrees with you has no jurisdiction here.

So I take your silence in other threads like the one you tried to say LSD is toxic as an admission it is not? :lol:
 
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