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Thread: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

  1. #211
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    The SCOTUS ruling wasn't about whether the ICJ has jurisdiction over us, it was about whether we violated a treaty.
    The Supreme Court ruled on both issues. It specifically knocked down the petitioners' argument that rested "on the theory that either Congress or the Legislature of the State of Texas might determine that the actions of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) should be given controlling weight in determining that a violation of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations is grounds for vacating the sentence..." In other words, it was a legal theory that asserted that either Congress or the Texas Legislature would accept the ICJ's jurisdiction.

    part of our obligation was to establish domestic laws that would take care of those details. Obviously we didn't establish those laws, so the way I see it we violated the treaty right there. How am I mistaken?
    I made no suggestion that the U.S. was not in violation of the Vienna Convention. The failure to provide consular access was a violation of Article 36.

    However, as the Convention did not provide self-executing language and Congress had not adopted laws setting forth specific consequences of a failure to provide consular access, the Supreme Court was left to determine whether the defendant had received due process. It could not reasonably have been expected to legislate where Congress had not done so, much less, develop specific legal remedies for a Convention that contained none with respect to the relevant issue.

    The defendant received due process. As due process had been provided, the procedural defect did not rise to the level that required that the verdict reached on the substantive evidence of the case to be overturned.

    The ICJ had no jurisdiction to require otherwise. Its latest criticism of the U.S. also has no substantive impact.

    As I support Article 36 of the Vienna Convention, I very much hope that the current Congress will adopt appropriate legislation that creates a reasonable framework for addressing similar issues should they arise in the future. Otherwise, decisions in such cases will need to be judged strictly by whether they meet the legal standards as defined in the U.S. Constitution and its laws. The same would, of course, apply to any other sovereign state. The test would be whether the legal process met their own legal standards.

    In the end, I believe treaties and agreements need a level of concreteness to address failures with respect to treaty/agreement obligations. As the Vienna Convention contained no such concreteness, the responsibility for the outcome rests not with the U.S. Supreme Court--it made the only decision it could given the facts of the case and circumstances associated with the Vienna Convention--but with the Vienna Convention's absence of a reasonable remedy for the situation that occurred.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 01-23-09 at 01:18 AM.

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Would you be in favor of Americans being executed in other countries for breaking their laws? Just a question. I know the yelling and screaming when some Australian kid in Singapore got caught with weed in her bag. I can't really imagine the American outrage if something like this was done to our citizens.
    Uhm there is a woman going through trial right now in Italy for murder that is an American citizen. America even shipped her back. Amanda Knox. So really, it does happen. When you go into another country, you are expected to follow their rules. You do not go into another country and expect them to follow yours. Much like the people coming into America and expecting them to speak their language instead of them learning the language already in place here.

    There are consequences for your actions no matter where you go. Thinking you can go into another country and do heinous crimes and not be punished is ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shewter View Post
    You just pulled a bonnie.

    Please. PLEASE think before you post!

  3. #213
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Are we done with this now? I think we've correctly concluded that Texas was correct.
    You may have come to that conclusion. I have not. Texas violated the Vienna Convention. THis violation puts American credibility in question and U.S. citizens overseas at risk.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    The SCOTUS ruling wasn't about whether the ICJ has jurisdiction over us, it was about whether we violated a treaty. They didn't have to rule on the ICJ's jurisdiction, since we withdrew from that protocol in 2005.
    Actually, as I have noted, the original ICJ decision was in 2004, the year BEFORE the US withdrew from the Optional Protocol.

    We signed a treaty in the 1960s, and as I understand it, because it was a non-self-executing treaty, part of our obligation was to establish domestic laws that would take care of those details. Obviously we didn't establish those laws, so the way I see it we violated the treaty right there. How am I mistaken?
    You are absolutely correct. By its negligence, the Congress has put the US in a position where it has now violated a treaty to which it is a party through the Senate's ratification of said treaty.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
    Uhm there is a woman going through trial right now in Italy for murder that is an American citizen. America even shipped her back. Amanda Knox. So really, it does happen. When you go into another country, you are expected to follow their rules. You do not go into another country and expect them to follow yours. Much like the people coming into America and expecting them to speak their language instead of them learning the language already in place here.

    There are consequences for your actions no matter where you go. Thinking you can go into another country and do heinous crimes and not be punished is ridiculous.
    Does Amanda Knox have access to US officials in Italy? My guess is that she does because Italy recognizes its obligations under the Vienna Convention and customary international law.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Ummm yes I have. Go back and actually look at the links I posted.

    It was not ratified or voted on by the states. End of story.
    You have been strangely quiet since I have provided proof that you are wrong on this claim.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You have been strangely quiet since I have provided proof that you are wrong on this claim.
    I will take the sudden silence by Blackdog and others as a concession that the US was indeed in violation of its treaty obligations and thus of international law and that the ICJ decision was, in fact, the correct one.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Does Amanda Knox have access to US officials in Italy? My guess is that she does because Italy recognizes its obligations under the Vienna Convention and customary international law.
    Is she being held because we are at war with Italy? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shewter View Post
    You just pulled a bonnie.

    Please. PLEASE think before you post!

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
    Is she being held because we are at war with Italy? No.
    Are we at war with Mexico?
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Are we at war with Mexico?
    Wow
    I really just did that. haha.

    I meant to respond saying how Mexico doesn't give too ****s if someone we want is down there. They won't return them to us. They won't do **** about it. I'm also sure that if it were reversed Mexico would play ignorant. To be frank, the guy killed people here. He needed to be tried here. He broke laws of this country and then should suffer the consequences of his actions held to standards of this country. I do not sympathize with Mexico about this. And I am against the death penalty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shewter View Post
    You just pulled a bonnie.

    Please. PLEASE think before you post!

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