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Thread: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

  1. #101
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Exactly. AS HE REQUESTS....

    Since he did not request it, he is screwed. He won't be raping and killing any more little girls either.
    But he was not notified. Nice how you selective quote from the treaty, but ignore the part that the ICJ actually ruled on.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Here is Article 36(1)(b) of the Vienna Convention:


    They should have been notified of their Vienna rights. The fact that they didn't ask for them means nothing.

    But SCOTUS is arguing that we don't have an obligation to abide by Vienna, because it's a "non-executing" treaty:

    That's very interesting. I didn't realize that we don't have to follow treaties unless: A.) They are "self-executing," or B.) Congress enacts an "implementing statute" for them. So what would make a treaty "self-executing" then? I found this definition:

    So if Vienna is non-self-executing, then what domestic legislation would need to be passed in order for the authorities to notify fellow signatory nations when they've arrested one of their citizens? I'm not following the SCOTUS' reasoning here.
    What they are saying is that the United States must pass legislation in order for the treaty to be valid on our soil. Example: the Vienna Convention created the treaty of Consulars, so for the treaty to be effective here, the United States government would have to create legislation putting that treaty into effect on our soil.

  3. #103
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    What they are saying is that the United States must pass legislation in order for the treaty to be valid on our soil. Example: the Vienna Convention created the treaty of Consulars, so for the treaty to be effective here, the United States government would have to create legislation putting that treaty into effect on our soil.
    The United States signed and ratified the treaty. That means the United States has the international obligation to abide by the treaty and make sure it is followed by subsidiary governments in the US. The United States is in clear breach of its treaty obligations and this puts Americans residing overseas in a potentially dangerous situation.
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  4. #104
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    But he was not notified. Nice how you selective quote from the treaty, but ignore the part that the ICJ actually ruled on.
    It does not matter if he was notified or not, the United States passed no legislation that put the treaty into effect on our soil.

    Also, the United States withdrew itself from the Optional Protocol to the Vienna Convention, so all of this is kind of moot.

    washingtonpost.com: U.S. Quits Pact Used in Capital Cases

  5. #105
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    It does not matter if he was notified or not, the United States passed no legislation that put the treaty into effect on our soil.

    Also, the United States withdrew itself from the Optional Protocol to the Vienna Convention, so all of this is kind of moot.

    washingtonpost.com: U.S. Quits Pact Used in Capital Cases
    So, it is ok for the US to sign and ratify a treaty, but then not follow it because no legislation was passed? That might satifsfy you, but that does not satisfy US obligations under international law.

    Withdrawl from the protocol does NOT absolve the US of adhering to its responsibilities to make sure suspects receive the right to consular access. Furthermore, U.S. withdrawal occurred AFTER the original decision regarding the Mexicans. This means it was still in effect when the initial case was brought.
    Last edited by ludahai; 01-19-09 at 09:49 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The United States signed and ratified the treaty. That means the United States has the international obligation to abide by the treaty and make sure it is followed by subsidiary governments in the US. The United States is in clear breach of its treaty obligations and this puts Americans residing overseas in a potentially dangerous situation.
    See second part of post #95.

    The treaty itself states, "The rights referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article shall be exercised in conformity with the laws and regulations of the receiving State, subject to the proviso, however, that the said laws and regulations must enable full effect to be given to the purposes for which the rights accorded under this Article are intended."

    It was a requirement of the treaty itself that legislation is enacted to make the treaty effective on our soil. The United States passed no such legislation so the treaty means nothing on our soil.

  7. #107
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    So, it is ok for the US to sign and ratify a treaty, but then not follow it because no legislation was passed? That might satifsfy you, but that does not satisfy US obligations under international law.
    The treaty ITSELF specifies this criteria, so no international law was broken.

    What international law was broken?

  8. #108
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    See second part of post #95.

    The treaty itself states, "The rights referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article shall be exercised in conformity with the laws and regulations of the receiving State, subject to the proviso, however, that the said laws and regulations must enable full effect to be given to the purposes for which the rights accorded under this Article are intended."

    It was a requirement of the treaty itself that legislation is enacted to make the treaty effective on our soil. The United States passed no such legislation so the treaty means nothing on our soil.
    The US signed a treaty and ratified it. It has the responsibility to abide by it. It did not abide by it. The US is in violation of international law. I wish this were not true, but it is. The US now has done even more to lose the moral high road. It now can NOT claim to represent "international law" when it does not follow it itself.

    The language in the treaty is clear. The State of Texas was obgliated to inform him of his rights - not unlike the Miranda Warning - and allow him to avail himself of it if he so desired.
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  9. #109
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    So, it is ok for the US to sign and ratify a treaty, but then not follow it because no legislation was passed? That might satifsfy you, but that does not satisfy US obligations under international law.

    Withdrawl from the protocol does NOT absolve the US of adhering to its responsibilities to make sure suspects receive the right to consular access. Furthermore, U.S. withdrawal occurred AFTER the original decision regarding the Mexicans. This means it was still in effect when the initial case was brought.
    You keep saying that the treaty was ratified by Congress. It was NOT.
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  10. #110
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    The guy we executed here in Texas only raped and murdered 2 little girls.

    Screw the UN. Justice has been served.

    Article is here.
    **** the UN. It always amuses me when UN apologist whine about what if an American was arrested for some crime in some country. If they rape and murder some girls then **** them we do not want them back. If some other country wants to arrest Americans for measly **** and execute them then we cut off travel to that country , its that simple.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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