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Thread: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Umm, yes it does is the rights of the accused were clearly violated - which they were. What is wrong with following the law, THEN frying the guy?
    I refer you back to Alex's post (#83 - About the Supreme Court decision), which explains why no rights were violated.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Good he is dead, justice has been served and one less child rapist/killer is in the US.

    I have no problem with other country's jailing Americans if they break the laws. The only issue would be that they get a fair trial.

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I refer you back to Alex's post (#83 - About the Supreme Court decision), which explains why no rights were violated.
    I disagree with the decision. It is a clear violation of U.S. international agreements and endangers the legitimate rights of Americans overseas.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Good he is dead, justice has been served and one less child rapist/killer is in the US.

    I have no problem with other country's jailing Americans if they break the laws. The only issue would be that they get a fair trial.
    Should countries fulfill their international obligations? I also have no problem with executing such scumbags, but the correct procedures and (in this case) international obligations arising from agreements signed and ratified by the U.S. and other states should be followed.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Here is the exact text of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations with regard to this issue.

    Section 36:

    "With a view to facilitating the exercise of consular functions relating to nationals of the sending State:

    ...if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner."

    Do we have any evidence that Medellín asked for a consular officer? The Vienna Convention requires the accused to request it.

    Also, even if the accused did ask for a consular officer, the the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations states this in the same section as above:

    "The rights referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article shall be exercised in conformity with the laws and regulations of the receiving State, subject to the proviso, however, that the said laws and regulations must enable full effect to be given to the purposes for which the rights accorded under this Article are intended."

    The document that outlines the rights of nationals in relation to consular privileges specifically states that the nation in question must have its own laws directly related to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations in order for that part of the treaty to be effective.

    Did the United States pass any laws related to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations? If SCOTUS found none, as I showed in a previous post, then they do not exist.

    So what treaty did the United States violate?

    The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations and Optional Protocols

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    Why so serious?

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Would you be in favor of Americans being executed in other countries for breaking their laws? Just a question. I know the yelling and screaming when some Australian kid in Singapore got caught with weed in her bag. I can't really imagine the American outrage if something like this was done to our citizens.
    I'd have no problem with it. You break the law where ever you are, and there's a price to be paid. I was stationed on Okinawa when a 12 year old girl was abducted and raped by three American servicemen, and I didn't have any problem at all with their prosecution and prison sentences. If Japan could have sentenced them to death, that would have been fine, too.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Here is the exact text of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations with regard to this issue.

    Section 36:

    "With a view to facilitating the exercise of consular functions relating to nationals of the sending State:

    ...if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner."

    Do we have any evidence that Medellín asked for a consular officer? The Vienna Convention requires the accused to request it.

    Also, even if the accused did ask for a consular officer, the the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations states this in the same section as above:

    "The rights referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article shall be exercised in conformity with the laws and regulations of the receiving State, subject to the proviso, however, that the said laws and regulations must enable full effect to be given to the purposes for which the rights accorded under this Article are intended."

    The document that outlines the rights of nationals in relation to consular privileges specifically states that the nation in question must have its own laws directly related to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations in order for that part of the treaty to be effective.

    Did the United States pass any laws related to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations? If SCOTUS found none, as I showed in a previous post, then they do not exist.

    So what treaty did the United States violate?

    The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations and Optional Protocols
    Exactly. AS HE REQUESTS....

    Since he did not request it, he is screwed. He won't be raping and killing any more little girls either.
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Should countries fulfill their international obligations? I also have no problem with executing such scumbags, but the correct procedures and (in this case) international obligations arising from agreements signed and ratified by the U.S. and other states should be followed.
    If it involves the UN, no.

    PS I am utterly anti-UN, and feel we should withdraw funding and support immediately.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-19-09 at 08:03 PM.

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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by SCOTUS
    The ICJ held that the United States had violated Article 36(1)(b) of the Vienna Convention...
    Here is Article 36(1)(b) of the Vienna Convention:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna Convention
    if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Any communication addressed to the consular post by the person arrested, in prison, custody or detention shall be forwarded by the said authorities without delay. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without delay of his rights under this subparagraph.

    Vienna Convention on Consular Relations
    They should have been notified of their Vienna rights. The fact that they didn't ask for them means nothing.

    But SCOTUS is arguing that we don't have an obligation to abide by Vienna, because it's a "non-executing" treaty:
    Quote Originally Posted by SCOTUS
    No one disputes that the Avena decision -- a decision that flows from the treaties through which the United States submitted to ICJ jurisdiction with respect to Vienna Convention disputes -- constitutes an international law obligation on the part of the United States. But not all international law obligations automatically constitute binding federal law enforceable in United States courts. The question we confront here is whether the Avena judgment has automatic domestic legal effect such that the judgment of its own force applies in state and federal courts.

    This Court has long recognized the distinction between treaties that automatically have effect as domestic law, and those that, while they constitute international law commitments, do not by themselves function as binding federal law. The distinction was well explained by Chief Justice Marshall's opinion in Foster v. Neilson, 2 Pet. 253, 315 (1829), overruled on other grounds, United States v. Percheman, 7 Pet. 51 (1833), which held that a treaty is "equivalent to an act of the legislature," and hence self-executing, when it "operates of itself without the aid of any legislative provision." Foster, supra, at 314. When, in contrast, "[treaty] stipulations are not self-executing they can only be enforced pursuant to legislation to carry them into effect." Whitney v. Robertson, 124 U. S. 190, 194 (1888). In sum, while treaties "may comprise international commitments . . . they are not domestic law unless Congress has either enacted implementing statutes or the treaty itself conveys an intention that it be 'self-executing' and is ratified on these terms."

    Medellín v. Texas 552 U.*S. ____ -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
    That's very interesting. I didn't realize that we don't have to follow treaties unless: A.) They are "self-executing," or B.) Congress enacts an "implementing statute" for them. So what would make a treaty "self-executing" then? I found this definition:

    a treaty may be either self-executing or non-self-executing, depending upon whether domestic legislation must be enacted in order for the treaty to enter into force.

    self-executing treaty -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
    So if Vienna is non-self-executing, then what domestic legislation would need to be passed in order for the authorities to notify fellow signatory nations when they've arrested one of their citizens? I'm not following the SCOTUS' reasoning here.

  10. #100
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    Re: US breached order by executing Mexican: UN court

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    If it involves the UN, no.

    PS I am utterly anti-UN, and feel we should withdraw funding and support immediately.
    I am not the UN's biggest fan either, but the treaty involved has nothing to do with the UN.
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