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Thread: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    It doesn't bother anyone that he's a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair with partially blind eyesight?

    When I saw the aftermath of the assassination I was almost disgusted.
    His physical state is pretty meaningless. He was pretty evil in ordering all of those suicide bombing that killed innocent people. I have little sympathy for his paraplegia.
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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    It doesn't bother anyone that he's a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair with partially blind eyesight?
    Not this camper.

    When I saw the aftermath of the assassination I was almost disgusted.
    I'm disgusted that you were almost disgusted about a dead terrorist.

    Anyone else disgusted?

    Let's have a "disgusted" fest.

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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    That would be the UN/ICJ. Don't think anyone would even be charged with anything.
    Citation Please?
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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Here is something that most Westerners do not quite grasp. War in the ME is not equitable to what those in the West understand as war. Never has been. No quarter is asked and none is given. Over 1,000,000 deaths and casualties in the Iraq/Iran war. 20,000 civilians killed in a Syrian city attacked by the Syrian military. The religious inspired civil wars wars in Lebanon. What Iraqi forces did in Kuwait City, the extremely bloody pre-partition violence between Arabs and Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine, etc. etc.

    I tend to think this mindset stems from the ancient scripture of both Muslims and Jews. In both the Torah and Qu'ran, there is endemnic violence on an unprecidented scale. This mindset persists to this day in a region that is soaked in religion and bad memories.

    I'm not excusing this, I'm just telling it like it is. It is folly to expect ME wars to mirror wars waged in the West. Perhaps and hopefully, this will change someday.
    I think you absolutely hit the nail right on the head, here, Tashah.

    We should not expect things to go the same as we would expect a western war to be waged. We can always hope for it, and make a serious effort for the wars to be waged as such, but to expect it is definitely folly and shows a lack of undersstanding of what the driving forces behind the respective mentalities in the region really are.

    In all, a fantastic post, IMO.
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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I think you absolutely hit the nail right on the head, here, Tashah.

    We should not expect things to go the same as we would expect a western war to be waged. We can always hope for it, and make a serious effort for the wars to be waged as such, but to expect it is definitely folly and shows a lack of undersstanding of what the driving forces behind the respective mentalities in the region really are.

    In all, a fantastic post, IMO.
    Is the Iraq war a "western war"? I for one feel we're doing quite well there since we have adapted our tactics. If you excuse Israel for fighting in "just another ME war", you only prolong the cycle. The ME war style rarely results in a lasting peace, more often it results in catastrophic casualties.

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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    Is the Iraq war a "western war"? I for one feel we're doing quite well there since we have adapted our tactics. If you excuse Israel for fighting in "just another ME war", you only prolong the cycle. The ME war style rarely results in a lasting peace, more often it results in catastrophic casualties.
    First of all, we're a western nation. We will fight like a western nation does. I think that is the better way to do things, myself.

    But what I said doesn't excuse Israel, it simply explains how the mindset is. I never said we should just allow it to happen. Like I said, "We can always hope for it, and make a serious effort for the wars to be waged as such".

    A serious effort to try and get them to wage war as we do in the west implies the exact opposite of "excusing" Israel.

    If one doesn't understand the reasons why they wage war in this fashion, no legitimate effort can be made to exact change in the way that ME war is waged.

    You absolutely need to be aware of the reasoning that causes the parties to wage war in this fashion if there is any hop eof getting them to renounce certain tactics.

    You must approach the problem from their POV in order to try and alter that POV.

    The difference here is the difference between "expect" and "hope".

    If I meet a drug addict on the street and I tell them that they are killing themselves, I don't expect them to suddenly give up drugs. I could hope that they would, but to expect such is naive.

    But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem. Instead you must come at the problem form their mindset. Address the underlying problems in order to cause a change in their behavior.

    If you do that, you STILL shouldn't "expect" a change, but their is a greater chance that your "hopes" will be fullfilled.
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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    First of all, we're a western nation. We will fight like a western nation does. I think that is the better way to do things, myself.

    But what I said doesn't excuse Israel, it simply explains how the mindset is. I never said we should just allow it to happen. Like I said, "We can always hope for it, and make a serious effort for the wars to be waged as such".

    A serious effort to try and get them to wage war as we do in the west implies the exact opposite of "excusing" Israel.

    If one doesn't understand the reasons why they wage war in this fashion, no legitimate effort can be made to exact change in the way that ME war is waged.

    You absolutely need to be aware of the reasoning that causes the parties to wage war in this fashion if there is any hop eof getting them to renounce certain tactics.

    You must approach the problem from their POV in order to try and alter that POV.

    The difference here is the difference between "expect" and "hope".

    If I meet a drug addict on the street and I tell them that they are killing themselves, I don't expect them to suddenly give up drugs. I could hope that they would, but to expect such is naive.

    But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem. Instead you must come at the problem form their mindset. Address the underlying problems in order to cause a change in their behavior.

    If you do that, you STILL shouldn't "expect" a change, but their is a greater chance that your "hopes" will be fullfilled.
    I was speaking more to Tashah's words and your interpretation of them. You feel that the problem can be addressed without criticism and I disagree.

    I believe Israel has less of a clue why their enemies attack them than many others. The proof of this lies in their repeated use of a failed strategy. It is not westerners who need to get a better POV, it is the Israeli's.

    If you still feel criticism is not the only avenue for change, pray tell what the western world can do to stop Israel continuing on its suicidal course.

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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Not this camper.

    I'm disgusted that you were almost disgusted about a dead terrorist.

    Anyone else disgusted?

    Let's have a "disgusted" fest.
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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by shiznit770 View Post
    I was speaking more to Tashah's words and your interpretation of them. You feel that the problem can be addressed without criticism and I disagree.

    I believe Israel has less of a clue why their enemies attack them than many others. The proof of this lies in their repeated use of a failed strategy. It is not westerners who need to get a better POV, it is the Israeli's.

    If you still feel criticism is not the only avenue for change, pray tell what the western world can do to stop Israel continuing on its suicidal course.
    Crtiticism without understanding is pointless.

    And please show me where I said the problem can be addressed without criticism. I'd be interested in that post since I never made it.

    Criticism without understanding is impotent. It is a case of the empty can rattling the most. What we see is primarily a bunch of mindless yammering about how wrong Israel is, without actually making a cogent point.

    Criticism simply for the sake of criticism is an exercise in futility. Criticism must be a surgeon's knife, not a Ogre's club.
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    Re: Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Crtiticism without understanding is pointless.

    And please show me where I said the problem can be addressed without criticism. I'd be interested in that post since I never made it.

    Criticism without understanding is impotent. It is a case of the empty can rattling the most. What we see is primarily a bunch of mindless yammering about how wrong Israel is, without actually making a cogent point.

    Criticism simply for the sake of criticism is an exercise in futility. Criticism must be a surgeon's knife, not a Ogre's club.
    But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem. Instead you must come at the problem form their mindset. Address the underlying problems in order to cause a change in their behavior.
    I guess I'm not sure who you feel is qualified to make criticism. We certainly cannot expect Israel to change on its own. When so many justify Israel's actions without even considering whether they will bring peace or further war, the Ogre's club becomes necessary. You may be content tossing a safe criticism in every now and then, but I am not. Such passing criticism is dismissed and rarely taken seriously.

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