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Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

shiznit770 said:
Is the Iraq war a "western war"? I for one feel we're doing quite well there since we have adapted our tactics. If you excuse Israel for fighting in "just another ME war", you only prolong the cycle. The ME war style rarely results in a lasting peace, more often it results in catastrophic casualties.
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First of all, we're a western nation. We will fight like a western nation does. I think that is the better way to do things, myself.

But what I said doesn't excuse Israel, it simply explains how the mindset is. I never said we should just allow it to happen. Like I said, "We can always hope for it, and make a serious effort for the wars to be waged as such".

A serious effort to try and get them to wage war as we do in the west implies the exact opposite of "excusing" Israel.

If one doesn't understand the reasons why they wage war in this fashion, no legitimate effort can be made to exact change in the way that ME war is waged.

You absolutely need to be aware of the reasoning that causes the parties to wage war in this fashion if there is any hop eof getting them to renounce certain tactics.

You must approach the problem from their POV in order to try and alter that POV.

The difference here is the difference between "expect" and "hope".

If I meet a drug addict on the street and I tell them that they are killing themselves, I don't expect them to suddenly give up drugs. I could hope that they would, but to expect such is naive.

But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem. Instead you must come at the problem form their mindset. Address the underlying problems in order to cause a change in their behavior.

If you do that, you STILL shouldn't "expect" a change, but their is a greater chance that your "hopes" will be fullfilled.
 
Tucker Case said:
First of all, we're a western nation. We will fight like a western nation does. I think that is the better way to do things, myself.

But what I said doesn't excuse Israel, it simply explains how the mindset is. I never said we should just allow it to happen. Like I said, "We can always hope for it, and make a serious effort for the wars to be waged as such".

A serious effort to try and get them to wage war as we do in the west implies the exact opposite of "excusing" Israel.

If one doesn't understand the reasons why they wage war in this fashion, no legitimate effort can be made to exact change in the way that ME war is waged.

You absolutely need to be aware of the reasoning that causes the parties to wage war in this fashion if there is any hop eof getting them to renounce certain tactics.

You must approach the problem from their POV in order to try and alter that POV.

The difference here is the difference between "expect" and "hope".

If I meet a drug addict on the street and I tell them that they are killing themselves, I don't expect them to suddenly give up drugs. I could hope that they would, but to expect such is naive.

But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem. Instead you must come at the problem form their mindset. Address the underlying problems in order to cause a change in their behavior.

If you do that, you STILL shouldn't "expect" a change, but their is a greater chance that your "hopes" will be fullfilled.
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I was speaking more to Tashah's words and your interpretation of them. You feel that the problem can be addressed without criticism and I disagree.

I believe Israel has less of a clue why their enemies attack them than many others. The proof of this lies in their repeated use of a failed strategy. It is not westerners who need to get a better POV, it is the Israeli's.

If you still feel criticism is not the only avenue for change, pray tell what the western world can do to stop Israel continuing on its suicidal course.
 
shiznit770 said:
I was speaking more to Tashah's words and your interpretation of them. You feel that the problem can be addressed without criticism and I disagree.

I believe Israel has less of a clue why their enemies attack them than many others. The proof of this lies in their repeated use of a failed strategy. It is not westerners who need to get a better POV, it is the Israeli's.

If you still feel criticism is not the only avenue for change, pray tell what the western world can do to stop Israel continuing on its suicidal course.
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Crtiticism without understanding is pointless.

And please show me where I said the problem can be addressed without criticism. I'd be interested in that post since I never made it.

Criticism without understanding is impotent. It is a case of the empty can rattling the most. What we see is primarily a bunch of mindless yammering about how wrong Israel is, without actually making a cogent point.

Criticism simply for the sake of criticism is an exercise in futility. Criticism must be a surgeon's knife, not a Ogre's club.
 
Tucker Case said:
Crtiticism without understanding is pointless.

And please show me where I said the problem can be addressed without criticism. I'd be interested in that post since I never made it.

Criticism without understanding is impotent. It is a case of the empty can rattling the most. What we see is primarily a bunch of mindless yammering about how wrong Israel is, without actually making a cogent point.

Criticism simply for the sake of criticism is an exercise in futility. Criticism must be a surgeon's knife, not a Ogre's club.
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But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem. Instead you must come at the problem form their mindset. Address the underlying problems in order to cause a change in their behavior.
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I guess I'm not sure who you feel is qualified to make criticism. We certainly cannot expect Israel to change on its own. When so many justify Israel's actions without even considering whether they will bring peace or further war, the Ogre's club becomes necessary. You may be content tossing a safe criticism in every now and then, but I am not. Such passing criticism is dismissed and rarely taken seriously.
 
shiznit770 said:
I guess I'm not sure who you feel is qualified to make criticism. We certainly cannot expect Israel to change on its own. When so many justify Israel's actions without even considering whether they will bring peace or further war, the Ogre's club becomes necessary. You may be content tossing a safe criticism in every now and then, but I am not. Such passing criticism is dismissed and rarely taken seriously.
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Let me clarify that for you without editing the comment:

"But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem."


Simply as in "nothing more than that".
 
Tucker Case said:
Let me clarify that for you without editing the comment:

"But simply telling them that their actions are bad and attempting to sanction them for that behavior will NEVER fix the problem."

Simply as in "nothing more than that".
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Simply telling them their actions are bad is not criticism. Telling them their actions are bad because they will not bring peace and take many lives is criticism. The word itself means an informed analysis or interpretation.

The whole idea that we should not expect Israel to seek peace because we don't understand the region they are in is ridiculous. It ignores the underlying problems which you speak of and dismisses inconvenient criticisms.
 
shiznit770 said:
Hamas will not give up in the face of an overwhelming destructive force. I feel there needs to be a surge. A large international policing body within the population, not shelling from afar. In order to defeat (destroy or change) Hamas, Israel needs the support of the Palestinian people.

Military policing would be one of several factors necessary to accomplish this. They would also need to remove the blockade and give Gaza aid for reconstruction. Israel needs to insist on International support and work with its Arab neighbors much more. All of this is immediately unrealistic, but it should be a future goal. Each time Israel uses collective punishment they isolate themselves and tie the hands of their neighboring leaders.
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You know, I keep hearing people call for military policing but do people really understand what that means?

Military policing for this kind of situation isn't just a handfull of monitors in the area. Its going to require a full occupation of Palestine by the policing force due to the guerilla nature. Israel's war fighting capabilities are conventional and easy to track. Its going to require that force to have rules of engagement and authority which include the ability to arrest and detain people and equipment. Its going to require that the policing force's authority overrules the host nation's authority as well. Also its going to require that the force in question will have the ability to use military force without ultra-restrictive RoE that are commonplace in UN peacekeepers. And finally its going to require the international community to put up the money and manpower to handle this problem. And getting that kind of cash and support sure as heck isn't going to be easy from anyone other than the US.

Somehow I don't see Palestine or the ME community warming up to that idea. In fact I can almost see Juba videos of blue beanies getting sniped out of vehicles showing up almost immediately.
 
Keorythe said:
You know, I keep hearing people call for military policing but do people really understand what that means?

Military policing for this kind of situation isn't just a handfull of monitors in the area. Its going to require a full occupation of Palestine by the policing force due to the guerilla nature. Israel's war fighting capabilities are conventional and easy to track. Its going to require that force to have rules of engagement and authority which include the ability to arrest and detain people and equipment. Its going to require that the policing force's authority overrules the host nation's authority as well. Also its going to require that the force in question will have the ability to use military force without ultra-restrictive RoE that are commonplace in UN peacekeepers. And finally its going to require the international community to put up the money and manpower to handle this problem. And getting that kind of cash and support sure as heck isn't going to be easy from anyone other than the US.

Somehow I don't see Palestine or the ME community warming up to that idea. In fact I can almost see Juba videos of blue beanies getting sniped out of vehicles showing up almost immediately.
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I understand what it means and that's why I said it will not happen over night. The point is Israel cannot bring peace doing whatever the hell it wants. The whole region has interest in the conflict and that needs to be taken into consideration. KSA just announced 1 billion in aid to help rebuild Gaza.
 
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shiznit770 said:
Simply telling them their actions are bad is not criticism. Telling them their actions are bad because they will not bring peace and take many lives is criticism. The word itself means an informed analysis or interpretation.
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Response to the BOLDED PORTION: Well, if you think that what I said was not an attack on "crticism" of Israel, why did you bring it up as though I had made that claim by focussing on only part of the sentence and taking it out of context to imply that I was against criticizing Israel?

Honestly, you completely took things out of context (as displayed by ignoring the first portion of the sentence and underlining the latter portion) to create a strawman argument.

If you agree that what I said was in no way shape or form an argument against criticizing Isreal, then why did you falsley attempt to portray it as such?


REPSONSE TO THE UNDERINED PORTION: Don't you see that this was my point? That criticism of Israel should be made with understnding of the Israeli mindset as well as the palestinian mindset? I have never excused Israel, I'm saying we should understand their reasoning in order to make more cogent and qualified criticisms.

It underminse the position that Israel deserves criticism to make pointless criticisms that come across as blanket atacks on all things Israeli. If we do not understand the Israeli mindset, then our criticisms will simply fall on deaf ears.

It adds to the culture of victimization that exists within Israeli culture. The country was founded by a people who were escaping terrible persectution. The Tora describes the plight of the "chosen people" in great detail, and their struggle throughout the eons. This culture of victimization, which exists on both sides, is an extremely important causal factor for the current mentality.

They are taking the "Beat them at their own game" mentality with regards to this persecution complex.

By making untargetted and wide-sweeping criticisms of Israel without knowing this mentality exist, we will only FUEL the culture of victimization. The stance is "Since the days of Moses we have persevered with teh enmity of toehrs, and we have overcome. We are used to having the world against us, and it only strengthens our resolve."

What happens when people criticize Israel without understanding this mindset is that they actually FUEL Israeli aggression. In essence, it just doesn't seem right to them if they DON'T have "the whole world against them". They've been taught through the faith and their history that this is indeed the norm.

If everyone wasn't so ardently denouncing Israel, then there is a certain degree of a counter-intuitive mindset that mind of makes Israel think that they just aren't doing it right.

This is the mindset that I speak of. If there is ever to be peace in the region, we need to fix this persecution complex (that is justified to a degree on both sides).

While boith sides view themselves the victims, peace cannot and will not exist. It makes them feel that all things done for "defense" are justifiable because they are the "victim". BOTH sides think this, and both sides clamour about this.

This isn't a western conflict, and the motivations behind it are not those employed by westerners.

The whole idea that we should not expect Israel to seek peace because we don't understand the region they are in is ridiculous. It ignores the underlying problems which you speak of and dismisses inconvenient criticisms.
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Expect =/= "call for" in the context that I used.

We can and should CALL FOR Israel to seek peace. We should NOT "expect" them to do so, given the history of the reasons (not the excuses they are different things) behind it.
 
Degreez said:
It doesn't bother anyone that he's a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair with partially blind eyesight?
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How does this change the fact he is a terrorist scumbag? One's physical and mental condition does not excuse one from committing evil.

When I saw the aftermath of the assassination I was almost disgusted.
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Terrorist apologist always amuse me.
 
Tucker Case said:
This isn't a western conflict, and the motivations behind it are not those employed by westerners.
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You're right Tucker. But western people insist on using western logic and modality.

I myself in this thread tried to enlighten shiznit that war in the ME is not conducted according to western standards. Never has been. But he quickly dismissed this brutal truth simply because the messenger was Israeli.

Folks... water in the Middle East is not chlorinated. Jettison that mindset.
 
Tucker Case said:
Response to the BOLDED PORTION: Well, if you think that what I said was not an attack on "crticism" of Israel, why did you bring it up as though I had made that claim by focussing on only part of the sentence and taking it out of context to imply that I was against criticizing Israel?

Honestly, you completely took things out of context (as displayed by ignoring the first portion of the sentence and underlining the latter portion) to create a strawman argument.

If you agree that what I said was in no way shape or form an argument against criticizing Isreal, then why did you falsley attempt to portray it as such?
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You're right, I jumped the gun. I took that sentence as a dismissal of the UN's condemnation of the attack. Rereading it I see I read too much into it.

Expect =/= "call for" in the context that I used.

We can and should CALL FOR Israel to seek peace. We should NOT "expect" them to do so, given the history of the reasons (not the excuses they are different things) behind it.
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It sure sounds like an excuse to me. If we cannot expect them to seek peace that pretty much confirms the Arab position that Israel is an aggressive country that will not settle for peace.
 
Tashah said:
You're right Tucker. But western people insist on using western logic and modality.

I myself in this thread tried to enlighten shiznit that war in the ME is not conducted according to western standards. Never has been. But he quickly dismissed this brutal truth simply because the messenger was Israeli.

Folks... water in the Middle East is not chlorinated. Jettison that mindset.
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What does this mean exactly. "not conducted according to western standards". Can you elaborate on the differences in standards and their justification?

I dismissed the "brutal truth" because the "messenger" has frequently shown disrespect towards those who are critical of Israel.
 
shiznit770 said:
It sure sounds like an excuse to me. If we cannot expect them to seek peace that pretty much confirms the Arab position that Israel is an aggressive country that will not settle for peace.
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Unfortunately, we cannot expect either side to seek peace so long as both sides hold onto the mentalities that got them into the situation in teh first place.

Both sides need to basically give up their historical animosity in order for true peace to be achieved.

What the West needs to do is find a way to get both sides to see that their continuation of these ancient enmities only adds to their pain, instead of reducing the pain.

From my perspective, much of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict can be summed up as though it were a codependent relationship.

Many of the problems are brought on by emotional reactions instead of rational ones.

Both sides have blood on their hands, and sadly, the civilians on both sides are the one's who bear the brunt of the pain over it.



As much as I dislike many of the tactics employed by Israel, I may even dislike those of Hamas more. But sadly, this is what I expect from both sides as this conflict is never just about current events. This whole thing is a series of old wounds that are never given a chance to heal.

Both sides pick at each others scabs in order to start the blood flowing again.

And then parties involved on either side instigate more emotional hatred of each other on a level Westerners do not really understand.

It's a genetic hatred of sorts. It is passed down form generation to generation by seeing loved ones harmed, killed, maimed by the "enemies" weapons.

This is not something that is easily overcome, for either side. If we don't try and truly understand the complexities of the mindset employed by both sides we end up being driven mad by things that appear so simple to solve when one looks at things in an acedemic manner.

Ufortunately, wars like these are never simply acedemic.
 
Momma always told me. Somebody hits you. You better make sure they don't have a hand to hit you a second time. Israel's been hit enough. Let em go at it.
 
Does anyone think that Israel is stepping things up out of a sense of urgency to resolve the conflict due to the reality that Iran will eventually have a nuclear capability?
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Does anyone think that Israel is stepping things up out of a sense of urgency to resolve the conflict due to the reality that Iran will eventually have a nuclear capability?
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If you listen to some around here. Iran is the perfect place of peace and happyness and Isreal has nothing to worry about with a nuclear Iran. :roll:
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
If you listen to some around here. Iran is the perfect place of peace and happyness and Isreal has nothing to worry about with a nuclear Iran. :roll:
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I haven't heard that.

I've heard people think that they can keep nukes out of their hands forever though. Eventually they will buy one if they can't build it.
 
Tucker Case said:
From my perspective, much of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict can be summed up as though it were a codependent relationship.

Many of the problems are brought on by emotional reactions instead of rational ones.
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It's like watching two people on a stage slap each other over and over while both are crying to the audience "You see what he did to me! You see what he did!"

The major problem I see is that both sides feel they have been wronged, and therefore can do no wrong.

If Likud wins next month, or it's leader get's elected PM, then it's gone full circle.
 
jamesrage said:
How does this change the fact he is a terrorist scumbag? One's physical and mental condition does not excuse one from committing evil.
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And the Palestinians feel the same way about Ariel Sharon. So then if Hamas was to fire rockets as he lays in his vegetative state it would be exactly the same. Sharon has more dirty blood on his hands than Yassin did.

jamesrage said:
Terrorist apologist always amuse me.
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And you amuse me with your accusations. I said I was disgusted at the aftermath of the assassination. I did not say I was disgusted at the assassination. Learn to read coherently before making insinuating posts directed at me. Not to mention that the assassination was a rocket that killed 7 civilians including 2 of Yassin's sons, as Yassin was being wheeled out of a mosque.
 
shiznit770 said:
I dismissed the "brutal truth" because the "messenger" has frequently shown disrespect towards those who are critical of Israel.
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Well shiznit, you get the respect you give.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
I haven't heard that.

I've heard people think that they can keep nukes out of their hands forever though. Eventually they will buy one if they can't build it.
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obvious Child is one poster here arguing that Israel shoudl have nothing to worry about from a nuke-armed Iran. According to OC, Iran's annihilation rhetoric is just internal politics to gain the current government popular legitimacy. :roll:
 
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