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Thread: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Yes, but they cant just stand for whatever party they want without the consent of that party.
    It's called getting more votes...

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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    This is utter madness, I don't know why everyone is feeding Maximus. This Euro troll has moved the posts.

    Firstly, Maximus you are talking about private organisations known as political parties. Granted they can weed out or select candiates, but this is not the equivalent of a Grand Ayatolla approving of candidates regardless of their political party or beliefs.

    Secondly even if the United States Supreme Court can be compared to the Grand Ayatolla, in the sense that they are both unelected positions their actual powers and procedures are very different. For example the Grand Ayatolla has absolute power to back or veto candidates. In contrast the United Supreme Court only has the power to veto the President elect if he or she does not meet the requirements or candidacy is invalid due to the requirements of the constitution.....

    Thus, the US Supreme Court must follow procedure and cannot veto a Presidential candiate, or President elect merely because the Court rejects the political stance of that person. But this is a mute point, as there is a separation of powers in the US, that is not found in Iran.

    Lastly your argument that Iran is just as democratic as the US, due to America's dominate two party system is the worst form of consequentialist analysis. Granted the GOP and the Democrats rule the political roost in America, in most Americans vote for either party, but last I checked America has a wide range of independents and minor parties. Granted, Americans may not vote for these parties out of a cynical view that voting for such parties is a wasted vote, but this is cultural issue. If the majority of Americans changed their culture in relation to voting I am very sure that more independents and minors could enter into the political arena.

    Now if we contrast this with Iran, there is not a culture per se, that prevents liberal or independents from becoming a viable political option, but rather, there is a real physical power known as the Grand Ayatolla that prevents such an opportunity from occurring.

    Lastly Maximus, your efforts to defend that claim that Iran is just as democratic as America is laughable. You deliberately ignored the 'free' component of the definition of democracy, and when you were shown up, you moved the goal posts; by questioning the democratic process of the political parties themselves, which I would like to remind you are private organizations which have their own internal rules...... In fact can you tell me about the internal party rules or political parties that are part of the European Parliament or the Parliament of Norway?

    Thus if we look at the public sphere, as opposed to the internal workings of private organizations that take part in elections, we can see that the actual public election of Presidential candidates as opposed to a party selecting their candidate, we see that the United States is definitely more free and open in relation to its elections.

    Lastly, Maxmius why don't you share with us the European Union Commission on Human Rights' or Amnesty International or the UN's Human Rights Organizations view of Iranian elections as opposed to US elections? In fact why don't you make it really interesting and post other NGO's views of Iranian Elections as I am just dying to see their defenses of Iran's FREE and OPEN Presidential and Parliamentary elections......

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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Yes, but they cant just stand for whatever party they want without the consent of that party.

    You are just mixing things up here for the sake of trying to be right..
    You can run in the PRIMARY and it is up to the voters in the primary to decide who represents the party in the general. I know because I have actually GONE through this process at a local level election. Several of my ideas about policy went AGAINST the county party platform. I still won the primary and though I lost the general, I was able to get in and enact CHANGES in the local party platform. This happens all over the country. Sorry you can't accept the fact that the US system does't live up to your preconceived notions of it.
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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    This is utter madness, I don't know why everyone is feeding Maximus. This Euro troll has moved the posts. .
    You are just absurd, and your misunderstandings of everything I say stems clearly from a narrow perspective, rather than a wide understanding of things and a will to listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Firstly, Maximus you are talking about private organisations known as political parties. Granted they can weed out or select candiates, but this is not the equivalent of a Grand Ayatolla approving of candidates regardless of their political party or beliefs.
    I never said it was the same thing.. But it is somewhat comparable. I mentioned it since someone said "Iran is not democratic because the guardian council weeds out presidential candidates".

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Secondly even if the United States Supreme Court can be compared to the Grand Ayatolla, in the sense that they are both unelected positions their actual powers and procedures are very different. For example the Grand Ayatolla has absolute power to back or veto candidates. In contrast the United Supreme Court only has the power to veto the President elect if he or she does not meet the requirements or candidacy is invalid due to the requirements of the constitution......
    It is comparable since the Ayatollah and the Islamic part of the republic of Iran protects the Islamic foundation of the nation, just like the supreme court protects the foundation(constitution) in the US..
    However, they are not EXACTLY the same, I never claimed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Thus, the US Supreme Court must follow procedure and cannot veto a Presidential candiate, or President elect merely because the Court rejects the political stance of that person. But this is a mute point, as there is a separation of powers in the US, that is not found in Iran.
    As far as I know without being an expert on Iran, the Ayatollah can only make sure the rules of Islam is applied to policies conducted by the parliament and the president of Iran.


    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Lastly your argument that Iran is just as democratic as the US, due to America's dominate two party system is the worst form of consequentialist analysis. Granted the GOP and the Democrats rule the political roost in America, in most Americans vote for either party, but last I checked America has a wide range of independents and minor parties. Granted, Americans may not vote for these parties out of a cynical view that voting for such parties is a wasted vote, but this is cultural issue. If the majority of Americans changed their culture in relation to voting I am very sure that more independents and minors could enter into the political arena.
    Thats ridiculous, I never said Iran is just as democratic as the US. I said Iran is a form of democracy, but I also said the US and European democracies have their own dysfunctions. Thats not saying that Iran is even close to as democratic as those, its just also admitting the flaws of our own democracies for the sake of not being over biased like many people in this thread are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Now if we contrast this with Iran, there is not a culture per se, that prevents liberal or independents from becoming a viable political option, but rather, there is a real physical power known as the Grand Ayatolla that prevents such an opportunity from occurring.
    You can easily compare the Aytollah as a form of pope with political power equal to the president. He is there to protect Islam in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Those things you mention in the paragraph is not because of the Ayatollah making Iran non liberal and narrow, but rather because Islam is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Lastly Maximus, your efforts to defend that claim that Iran is just as democratic as America is laughable. You deliberately ignored the 'free' component of the definition of democracy, and when you were shown up, you moved the goal posts; by questioning the democratic process of the political parties themselves, which I would like to remind you are private organizations which have their own internal rules...... In fact can you tell me about the internal party rules or political parties that are part of the European Parliament or the Parliament of Norway?
    Again, I think your view here is quite distorted, I never said that Iran is just as democratic as the US. But it is correct, unlike you(probably) I also question the democratic process in the US and Europe, and often find the answers quite laughable and the system quite corrupted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Thus if we look at the public sphere, as opposed to the internal workings of private organizations that take part in elections, we can see that the actual public election of Presidential candidates as opposed to a party selecting their candidate, we see that the United States is definitely more free and open in relation to its elections.
    The process in both the US and Europe is quite free, but also quite corrupted, and has lately become quite unpolitical in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Lastly, Maxmius why don't you share with us the European Union Commission on Human Rights' or Amnesty International or the UN's Human Rights Organizations view of Iranian elections as opposed to US elections? In fact why don't you make it really interesting and post other NGO's views of Iranian Elections as I am just dying to see their defenses of Iran's FREE and OPEN Presidential and Parliamentary elections......
    I never said Irans elections were anywhere close to good, I am just saying that both the parliament and their leader is democratically elected. Also I am saying that Iran is a form of democracy.
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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You can run in the PRIMARY and it is up to the voters in the primary to decide who represents the party in the general. I know because I have actually GONE through this process at a local level election. Several of my ideas about policy went AGAINST the county party platform. I still won the primary and though I lost the general, I was able to get in and enact CHANGES in the local party platform. This happens all over the country. Sorry you can't accept the fact that the US system does't live up to your preconceived notions of it.
    Whats the problem with just showing me the party laws on this that says the party have to allow anyone(even hostiles) who nominate themselves under the party platform to stand in their primary round of elections..
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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Right Maximus....

    Firstly you are engaging in intellectual honesty. You introduced the point about the freedom of selection and opinion within the US party system as method of analogy to compare the US democracy to Iran. Don't try to squirm out of that one.


    Secondly, the US constitution provides a (for the most part) secular frame work which limits and controls the operations of government. That is the US constitution and the Supreme Court are the means (in part) in achieving the end which is a free republic, that is designed to protect man from government. Thus the constitution and Supreme Court serve a procedural purpose.

    Now getting back to the difference between the Supreme Court and the Ayatollah. The US supreme court may reject Presidential candidates or the Presidential Elect due to procedural aspects, designed to protect fair and open elections and protect the constitution. This is a rational theory, not a theological reason as in Iran.

    Secondly, the US Supreme Court does not prevent candidates from competing in elections, merely because the Supreme Court does not like a candidates stance on abortion, drugs, taxes, or religion. The Supreme Courts' ruling's are procedural.

    Now in Iran the Ayatollah filters candiate's before the election not on the basis of legalistic or procedural criteria, but rather on the basis of whether or not the candidate is theologically sound. Thus the the restrictions are not merely secular-legalistic grounds, but rather the restrictions are pro-active and take root in theocratic grounds. Thus Iranian elections are not free..... In essence the Iranian electorate, can chose any colour they like as long it is black. How can that be free?

    Next point, if the Ayatollah can make rules in regards to the President and Parliament, then he is a sovereign or ruler. The United States Supreme Court is part of the seperate branch of Government. By virtue as a Court it cannot create rules or laws, but only apply pre-existing rules or interpret the Constitution. Thus if someone wants to change the rules in America, they cannot merely do it by their own will, but rather the change in the constitution must be made a referendum put to the people. Interesting how democratic that system can be compared to the Iranian system.

    Next point you never directly claimed that Iran is just as democratic as the UK or Europe or the US, but you might as well have. First you claimed that Iran is a democracy, but then you moved the goal posts when other posters picked up on the 'free' part. Then you tried to analyze the internal workings of US political parties as a way demonstrating the lack of freedom within the US system of democracy. In doing so you are trying to make the US system look less free and thus less democratic. This is a negative approach, but the net effect is to equate Iran's democracy to the US's. Nice try.

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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Whats the problem with just showing me the party laws on this that says the party have to allow anyone(even hostiles) who nominate themselves under the party platform to stand in their primary round of elections..
    Because everything in the US is so decentralized. Did you know that where I lived, you register for primaries at the Board of Elections and NOT at the party headquarters? Why can't YOU provide the "evidence" that party leaders have the authority to disqualify primary candidates - as you are the one who initially made this claim.
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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Because everything in the US is so decentralized. Did you know that where I lived, you register for primaries at the Board of Elections and NOT at the party headquarters? Why can't YOU provide the "evidence" that party leaders have the authority to disqualify primary candidates - as you are the one who initially made this claim.
    Why do you keep mentioning the points we do not disagree on here?
    I never said they directly register with the party..

    But if they want to stand for a party, then certainly they cannot do that with a platform which opposes that party, nor can they stand for the republicans if they oppose all republican party stands. I have a hard time believing that..

    I never said I was right, I am doubtful at best, but pretty sure what I am saying is right. You are the one who is so damn sure, and keep getting trying to bang me down for believing the most logical. Its up to you to prove you claim, because you were the one who said it was definite and a fact. I said "I believe", "I am pretty damn sure", "it seems incredibly likely" and so on. I also asked for a clarification, not further claims that its the way you say.
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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Right Maximus....

    Firstly you are engaging in intellectual honesty. .
    Yet you are not even addressing any of the things I wrote in my response to you, so I consider it so that we have nothing to talk about, that we are basically in agreements.
    Your last thread doesn't really say anything....

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    Re: Iran president: 'Not feasible' for Israel to live

    Quote Originally Posted by Australianlibertarian View Post
    Next point you never directly claimed that Iran is just as democratic as the UK or Europe or the US, but you might as well have. First you claimed that Iran is a democracy, but then you moved the goal posts when other posters picked up on the 'free' part. Then you tried to analyze the internal workings of US political parties as a way demonstrating the lack of freedom within the US system of democracy. In doing so you are trying to make the US system look less free and thus less democratic. This is a negative approach, but the net effect is to equate Iran's democracy to the US's. Nice try.
    No, I might not as well have, that would not be my opinion. I still think Iran is a democracy, a form of democracy, just like the UK, France and the US is also a form of democracy, and that all those forms of democracy are very different forms of democracy.
    The US and European systems are less free than we like to believe.
    I am not trying to equate Irans democracy with the US...
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