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Thread: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Granted; I'll rephrase: So if I were to take the word "liberal" in Webster I would find the platform of the modern Liberal political movement?
    I don't know. What is the modern Liberal political movement? The people within the group and their or your interpretation of what a liberal is doesn't change the definition. I personally consider some of my views liberal and some not. You are right that it's not something that can be simplified, but the word itself doesn't change meaning. The people within that political ideology or who align themselves with part or all of that political ideology are going to vary. Liberal is just a word , just as Conservative is and the definitions are what they are and will remain so.

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    I don't know. What is the modern Liberal political movement? The people within the group and their or your interpretation of what a liberal is doesn't change the definition. I personally consider some of my views liberal and some not. You are right that it's not something that can be simplified, but the word itself doesn't change meaning. The people within that political ideology or who align themselves with part or all of that political ideology are going to vary. Liberal is just a word , just as Conservative is and the definitions are what they are and will remain so.
    Actually, the meaning of the two terms has changed over time. For example, the Founders of this country viewed themselves as liberals of the time. The idea that Man derived his freedom from God and that man in turn granted limited powers to government, and that if those powers were not carefully checked then man's liberty was in jeopardy, was a completely liberal view. In 2009, I, as a conservative, I defend those 233 year old "liberal" views.

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Actually, the meaning of the two terms has changed over time. For example, the Founders of this country viewed themselves as liberals of the time. The idea that Man derived his freedom from God and that man in turn granted limited powers to government, and that if those powers were not carefully checked then man's liberty was in jeopardy, was a completely liberal view. In 2009, I, as a conservative, I defend those 233 year old "liberal" views.
    Well, the views of progression were certainly different back then. However, progression has to move forward, it can't just stay in the same place. So therefore, yes, the views of our liberal founding fathers would now be considered Conservative by current standards. It still doesn't change the meaning of the terms "liberal" and "conservative".

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Well, the views of progression were certainly different back then. However, progression has to move forward, it can't just stay in the same place. So therefore, yes, the views of our liberal founding fathers would now be considered Conservative by current standards. It still doesn't change the meaning of the terms "liberal" and "conservative".
    It does when you're talking about how you want to limit the role of federal government, the definition of freedom, and the desired economic system. Modern liberals want the feds to go well beyond their Constitutional mandate. Modern Conservatives understand that with freedom comes personal responsibility; Liberals want freedom from personal responsibility. Conservatives want a free market, capitalist economy; Liberals want a socialist economy.

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    I'm referring to the Judaeo-Christian tradition that still lives on, not some Roman one that was taken over by it.
    You mean there should be no separation of church and state?
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    You mean there should be no separation of church and state?
    Talk about a far out of left field straw man...

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    Talk about a far out of left field straw man...
    Care to explain why it that is a straw man?

    1) The Constitution does provide for separation of church and state, and states so explicitly.

    2) When you pass laws that adhere strictly to a subset of a Judeo-Christian ethic, that clearly goes against separation.

    3) Anti abortion law at a Federal level is clearly based on a subset of a Judeo-Christian ethic.

    4) Bingo, there you have it - The church attempting to force their idea of what morality is into government. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

    5) Whatever powers are not explicitly stated in the Constitution belong to the states and to the people.

    6) While Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided, and should be overturned, the argument against the Federal government forcing the states to adopt the opposite position is just as compelling. Ever hear of the 10th amendment?

    7) Abortion is murder? Says who? Churches, and not all churches take that stance.

    8) Why don't all churches take that stance? Because there is disagreement among Biblical scholars as to whether abortion is murder or not.

    9) What disagreement you ask? The following passages help to explain the other side:

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    Man did not become a living soul until he took his first breath. But there is more:

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus 21:22
    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman' husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    As you can see, while the penalty in the Bible for murder is death, the penalty for causing a fetus to abort is a fine, to be determined by the elders, after consulting the woman's husband. That is actual biblical evidence that abortion is not murder, but is one interpretation. There are others, of course. But the bottom line here is that not every Christian believes abortion is murder, but the fundamentalists are attempting to pass Federal legislation making it so, based on their own version of the Judeo-Christian belief. This is clearly unconstitutional, as it is forcing the belief of some denominations of the Church onto everybody else, clearly in violation of the first amendment.

    10) Now, I will ask you once more - What straw man are you talking about? I see none here.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Care to explain why it that is a straw man?

    1) The Constitution does provide for separation of church and state, and states so explicitly. ....
    The Constitution doesn't provide for separation of Church and State; that's merely one contemporary interpretation. It does say that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion..." Traditional marriage ain't a religion.

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    The Constitution doesn't provide for separation of Church and State; that's merely one contemporary interpretation. It does say that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion..." Traditional marriage ain't a religion.
    Hit's the nail on the proverbial head.

    But let us keep reminding ourselves of Dan's conservative leanings regardless of his Liberal light arguments.

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    Re: 44 to reverse 43's executive orders

    What is the purpose of marriage if it is not religious in nature?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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