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Thread: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Sovereignty is an absolute. It is not dependent whatsoever on a kill ratio as you so disingenously suggest.
    Absolutely. Even one dead in respect to violating a county's sovereign borders is unacceptable.
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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    I'm not saying that at all. Where did I say those rockets were okay? Show me the post where I said that?
    The blockade has been going on for 18 months. Ever since Hamas was elected.
    It was lifted briefly, and when it was, Hamas used it to smuggle in arms. BTW, Egypt has the same blockade on. Why isn't THAT a war crime?

    I don't care if Israel stays or goes from Gaza. The just can't target civilian infrastructure that is not part of the hostilities.
    If Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to hide munitions, they very much ARE part of the hostilities.

    Israel refused to lift the blockade, that's why they said no. They shouldn't even have to say no. The blockade is illegal.
    They said no because they were not consulted AND they also refuse the proposal to station international troops on the border to enforce the provisions of the cease fire - something Israel supports. The blockade is NOT illegal.

    There are no arms in Gaza that threaten Israeli security. 15 dead in 8 years is not a threat to the IDF.
    One INJURED is justification enough for Israel to enact its inherent right to protect its citizens.
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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Like I said, you'll excuse anything they do.

    Read the link instead of asking me questions.
    I won't excuse ANYTHING they do, but I have no reason to condemn this action. They have the right to protect their citizens and to root out the source of aggression. Hamas committed an act of war. Israel is calling them on it.
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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I won't excuse ANYTHING they do, but I have no reason to condemn this action. They have the right to protect their citizens and to root out the source of aggression. Hamas committed an act of war. Israel is calling them on it.
    You got that backwards. Israel committed the act of war when they started the economic blockade just after Hamas got elected.

    As far as not excusing anything they do, it's nice to see that you draw the line somewhere.

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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Israel wants the rocket attacks on her citizenry to end and to no longer be targeted for destruction by Hamas.

    Hamas should just end it and recognize Israel. It has nothing to do with negotiations. What Hamas is doing is a war crime and an example of waging aggressive war. There is nothing that Israel has done that gives Hamas the right penetrate her borders, attack her citizenry and refuse to call for her destruction.

    That was easy.
    It sure was. I agree with every word. Just because I'm ripping Israel a new one, does not mean I'm absolving Hamas of their crimes.

    My position is simple: THEY'RE BOTH GUILTY!

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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    You got that backwards. Israel committed the act of war when they started the economic blockade just after Hamas got elected.

    As far as not excusing anything they do, it's nice to see that you draw the line somewhere.
    The blockade was to ensure that Hamas does not get hold of dangerous weapons to use against Israel.

    You will note that UNSC Resolution 1860 RESTATES the need to prevent Hamas from getting its hands on illicit weapons, but Hamas refuses this resolution. Israel MUST do what it can to prevent this. It supports the proposal to put international troops on the border to enforce terms like this, but Hamas refuses. Who is to blame? Obviously, it is Hamas.
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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The blockade was to ensure that Hamas does not get hold of dangerous weapons to use against Israel.

    You will note that UNSC Resolution 1860 RESTATES the need to prevent Hamas from getting its hands on illicit weapons, but Hamas refuses this resolution. Israel MUST do what it can to prevent this. It supports the proposal to put international troops on the border to enforce terms like this, but Hamas refuses. Who is to blame? Obviously, it is Hamas.
    There is nothing Hamas has done that gives Israel the right to collectively punish 1.5 million people. If you can't see how wrong it is to punish people that have committed no crime and done nothing to you, then there's nothing I can say to make you realize this.

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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Sovereignty is an absolute. It is not dependent whatsoever on a kill ratio as you so disingenously suggest.
    That is a key point, Tashah. Unfortunately, many of Israel's critics fail to understand or recognize that any attacks on a sovereign state's citizens is a violation of that state's sovereignty. Furthermore, had Hamas and others not been engaging in acts of terrorism, there would be no kill ratio, as Israel would have no need to respond militarily in self-defense.

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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Both Israel and Hamas rejected the ceasefire proposal.
    The UNSC Res. 1860 was practically worthless for Israel. It was long on atmospherics, and woefully short on content. It failed to provide for Israel's security needs, all but leaving the issue in Hamas' hands. It provided no enforcement machinery for ending weapons and money smuggling by Hamas. It contained no provisions reaffirming the Madrid Quartet's terms with respect to Hamas (recognition of Israel, abandoning violence, respecting existing diplomatic agreements), even as it invoked earlier initiatives such as the Arab peace initiative. It provided no mechanisms for bringing about the Madrid Quartet's terms. It did not mention Cpl. Shalit who remains a hostage.

    All in all, the resolution was highly unbalanced. In my opinion, it was little more than cheap theater to create an illusion of seeking to end violence. In its practical implications, it could only have strengthened the Hamas terrorist organization given that it failed to address Israel's security needs, provided no mechanisms for ending weapons/money smuggling, etc.

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    Re: 'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

    Quote Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
    Oh I get it.

    The Palestinian's kill their own children, then hang on to the carcass and wait for an Israeli air-strike, then run over and place their dead relatives under the rubble and wait for the media to report the casualties.

    Yeah, that's reasonable.
    Yes, that almost exactly describes it.

    And your recitation shows just how well you know it is true.

    And NO!

    That is NOT reasonable for them to do at all.

    OBL 11/24/02

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