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Jan. 1 Attack By CIA Killed Two Leaders Of Al-Qaeda

Lerxst said:
I have to disagree to a large extent with the "revenge" theory. I know it's popular among the crowd critical of Bush (count me among them), but I think it's off base. I believe the wider agenda among the Neo-Cons was to take advantage of the opportunity to actually invade Iraq, unseat Saddam, and seat a government friendly to a U.S. influence in the region. It fit their strategy for rebuilding America's defenses perfectly. They just didn't really plan it out at all. It was a rush to war to seize and opportunity and Bush & Co. thought that it would be a cakewalk. They simply disregarded the geopolitical environment of Iraq, and to a large extent the entire Middle Eastern region, and went for it.

While Bush probably wanted revenge, the invasion was more motivated by a group strategy, and I don't think revenge was on their minds. I think "sphere of influence in an oil rich region" was.
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Im not saying it was entirely correct, im saying it is one of the perceptions of US's actions.

I agree and look what has occured.
Im personally of the opinion that US screwed up the region, now fix it yourselves.
Bush had a wonderful climate, Americans were in fear of this new threat against them that threatened their way of life. I think they would have signed away their bill of rights straight after 9/11 if it guaranteed their safety.
 
zimmer said:
Not impossible.

We do it in a similar as we handled the Nazi's but in a 21st century manner. Keep thumping them every time they turn around.
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I fail to see an semblance between fighting Nazi Germany and fighting an idealism. Anyway, the majority of Islamist terror groups operate on a flat organizational structure and are spread across regions of the world and are motivated by a sense of religious direction and revenge. Not quite the same setup we saw in Berlin in the 30's and 40's.
It's either them or us.
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That's not the case at all.
I hope the Israeli's keep pounding the Palestinians. I hope they keep at this for months. Hamas sends in one rocket, Israel stuffs 30 into the place it came from. If there is a school, mosque or hospital in the vicinity... tough darts.
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And that is the attitude that ensure there will never be peace in that region. When you discard the value of human life, when you abandon recognition of the innocent caught in the battlefield, you become what you fight. Your attitude makes you no different than Hamas other than you are probably making your statements sitting from the comfort of a safe residence in the CONUS or Europe.
You asked for it, you'll get it... in spades. That has to be the message. Zero tolerance.
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Given the context of your message I take it you like W. Does his complete failure at foreign policy give you any cause at all to examine your opinion here?
 
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Laila said:
Im not saying it was entirely correct, im saying it is one of the perceptions of US's actions.
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I would agree with you on this point. It certainly has been argued and many have taken that point of view around the world.

I agree and look what has occured.
Im personally of the opinion that US screwed up the region, now fix it yourselves.
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We did go in there and make one hell of a mess.
Bush had a wonderful climate, Americans were in fear of this new threat against them that threatened their way of life. I think they would have signed away their bill of rights straight after 9/11 if it guaranteed their safety.
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And I agree with you on this. Witness all of the "if you ain't a terrorist you got nothin' to hide" mentality of those defending parts of the Patriot Act and chastising those who opposed it.
 
Laila said:
There hasn't been another attack on American soil yet there has been on the allies of this war.
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That's right, because we stopped them.
 
American said:
That's right, because we stopped them.
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Great, Americans hasn't suffered another attack yet.
You can never be certain of what will occur.
 
Lerxst said:
And I agree with you on this. Witness all of the "if you ain't a terrorist you got nothin' to hide" mentality of those defending parts of the Patriot Act and chastising those who opposed it.
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I hate that mentality, it angers me like nothing else can.
Im not a terrorist, but if someone thinks because i disagree with foreign policy i am now somehow a secret jihadist then **** 'em.
I always always get on a defensive with any of my American friends on this.
Bush's "you are with us or against us"
Well, im most certainley not with you but im not against you either. Take your pick.
 
American said:
That's right, because we stopped them.
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We have done a very good job of disrupting them, but we have in no way "stopped them." They are still quite active.

Not saying you specifically think this way American, but I cannot understand the mentality of those who think that only attacks on U.S. soil count. We have interests all over the world, we have citizens all over the world. We have not "stopped them" so much as we have temporarily interrupted their ability to hit us on U.S. home turf. And this is a good thing, but far from any end game.
 
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Laila said:
I hate that mentality, it angers me like nothing else can.
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That makes at least two of us.
Well, im most certainley not with you but im not against you either.
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This is a mindset that will make heads explode on the extreme right. :mrgreen:

Unlike some on here I believe that international opinion of the U.S. is critical and thus I can appreciate your position on this. However many on here take an almost xenophobic approach to foreign input when it comes to U.S. foreign policy...which is so odd because here we are pushing our agenda, which is foreign to those outside the U.S., yet as a matter of culture we expect them to just take it.

It's almost juvenile.
 
Thanks for twisting things again, good job.
 
American said:
Thanks for twisting things again, good job.
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I didn't try to twist anything. Sometimes less is not more. Your statement, given the extent of this discussion, leaves much to wonder.

Edit: I'll take responsibility for not putting a break in the commentary, it looks as though I have put words in your mouth. Please accept my apology, I edited my post to read better.
 
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Lerxst said:
That makes at least two of us.

This is a mindset that will make heads explode on the extreme right. :mrgreen:

Unlike some on here I believe that international opinion of the U.S. is critical and thus I can appreciate your position on this. However many on here take an almost xenophobic approach to foreign input when it comes to U.S. foreign policy...which is so odd because here we are pushing our agenda, which is foreign to those outside the U.S., yet as a matter of culture we expect them to just take it.

It's almost juvenile.
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Well the right had Bush so i don't think they have a leg to stand on to criticise me.

Its ridiculous isn't it?
Westerners almost expect countries to be grateful, they have democracy and they think its wonderful so now they want other countries to have it. Its almost as if democracy is the only way as they are superior.
Americans wouldn't have accepted someone introducing a completley new system of Government after toppling the first one yet we expected to have people open their arms to us as "liberators"
It was amusing to say the least =D
 
Laila said:
Westerners almost expect countries to be grateful, they have democracy and they think its wonderful so now they want other countries to have it. Its almost as if democracy is the only way as they are superior.
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I think the failure to connect was our idea that our Western flavor of democracy would work in the Mid East. Again, that whole disregard for the geopolitical environment thing.
 
Lerxst said:
I think the failure to connect was our idea that our Western flavor of democracy would work in the Mid East. Again, that whole disregard for the geopolitical environment thing.
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For Democracy to work in the Middle East or indeed the Islamic world
Secularism or at least a lessening of Islam needs to occur.
In cases, if democracy is given to Muslims by force. They will not respect it or treasure it and more than likely introduce a Anti-west radical Government. Does the West then acknowledge this democratic procedure or do as it did before in Hamas's case disregard it?
 
Laila said:
For Democracy to work in the Middle East or indeed the Islamic world
Secularism or at least a lessening of Islam needs to occur.
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I think I agree with you on this, assuming that by "lessening" you mean a shift to a more moderate, tolerant attitude within Islam needs to occur. And I would wholeheartedly agree.

In cases, if democracy is given to Muslims by force. They will not respect it or treasure it and more than likely introduce a Anti-west radical Government.
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We have seen this happen already in Iraq. The religious influence in politics, at least to the extent that Islam influences politics, is difficult for most Westerners, especially Americans, to grasp. We view religious influence in politics as a little more than "politics as usual" by the conservative right. More of a social moral stance than anything. But we just don't seem to recognize that our model of democracy simply will not work in a Muslim culture. We have to allow for direct theological influence because that's what most people want. Now do they want it to the extent that the Guardian Council pushes in Iran? No, I highly doubt it. But they aren't going to abandon their religion because democracy comes to town.

It will take a moderate shift within Islam to make a difference most westerners can recognize.

Does the West then acknowledge this democratic procedure or do as it did before in Hamas's case disregard it?
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I can't really answer that question. Hamas was already recognized as an armed terrorist organization by the west previous to the election. I think it's pretty well unprecedented in terms of it's situational relevance to both the west and mid-east.
 
zimmer said:
Not impossible.

We do it in a similar as we handled the Nazi's but in a 21st century manner. Keep thumping them every time they turn around.

It's either them or us.

I hope the Israeli's keep pounding the Palestinians. I hope they keep at this for months. Hamas sends in one rocket, Israel stuffs 30 into the place it came from. If there is a school, mosque or hospital in the vicinity... tough darts.

You asked for it, you'll get it... in spades. That has to be the message. Zero tolerance.
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ZIMMER: In college I sat down with some PLO in a school in Dayton Ohio. I wanted to get some answers,and they gave freely. None of their answers however cover repeatedly fireing missiles into Israel. Your 1:30 ratio seems very appropriate. I am unaware of any terrorist factions from Israel blowing up innocent anyones anywhere.
 
Rodney said:
ZIMMER: In college I sat down with some PLO in a school in Dayton Ohio. I wanted to get some answers,and they gave freely. None of their answers however cover repeatedly fireing missiles into Israel. Your 1:30 ratio seems very appropriate. I am unaware of any terrorist factions from Israel blowing up innocent anyones anywhere.
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Ever heard of the IDF? :2wave:
 
What is the point of making a statement like "if they fire one missile Israel should fire 30 back! if a school or hospital is hit tough darts!" or whatever? What does that mindset accomplish or prove?

The solution to the problem is not revenge. Neutralize the threat obviously, but calling for overkill and simply saying that innocent lives do not matter makes you no better than the enemy you are retaliating against.

Why even pretend you are the good guy if you are so willing to adopt an attitude that makes you just as evil?
 
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Lerxst said:
What is the point of making a statement like "if they fire one missile Israel should fire 30 back! if a school or hospital is hit tough darts!" or whatever? What does that mindset accomplish or prove?

The solution to the problem is not revenge. Neutralize the threat obviously, but calling for overkill and simply saying that innocent lives do not matter makes you no better than the enemy you are retaliating against.

Why even pretend you are the good guy if you are so willing to adopt an attitude that makes you just as evil?
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I don`t know how much overkill this tactic is. The intent is to end their capabilities to continue to terrise Israel. The hospital ,school ,shelter hits on the part of Israel is necessitated by the chicken Palistinians setting up launchers on the roof tops of these very facilities. These launchers are very mobile and if the Israeli military waited till they go t there to catch those darned bad guys , they and their terrorist toys would be long gone. An immediate strike on a military target will kill innocents if the launchers again are set up in neighborhoods....BLA BLA BLA. Thats all you hear. Its a real problem caused by the PLO. Again 30:1 good ratio. Thats how America ended the Nazi problem and the problem in the pacific. WAR SUCKS.... Don`t start one if you don`t want to be hit back.
 
Lerxst said:
I think I agree with you on this, assuming that by "lessening" you mean a shift to a more moderate, tolerant attitude within Islam needs to occur. And I would wholeheartedly agree
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A more moderate attitude yes but also i think its dangerous when 1 religion dominates as it crushes all other forms of discussion. So the attitude of this is right and that is it.
 
Rodney said:
I don`t know how much overkill this tactic is. The intent is to end their capabilities to continue to terrise Israel. The hospital ,school ,shelter hits on the part of Israel is necessitated by the chicken Palistinians setting up launchers on the roof tops of these very facilities. These launchers are very mobile and if the Israeli military waited till they go t there to catch those darned bad guys , they and their terrorist toys would be long gone. An immediate strike on a military target will kill innocents if the launchers again are set up in neighborhoods....BLA BLA BLA. Thats all you hear. Its a real problem caused by the PLO.
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Thirty rockets blanketing a civilian occupied area where a single rocket came from is the definition of overkill. Indiscriminate carpet bombing in retaliation for a single rocket launch is a terrorist tactic. If Israeli soldiers were taking fire from a single sniper from an apartment building occupied by 200 civilians and in response fired rockets into the building through every window then went in and shot numerous people because they might be an escaping sniper...and said "oh well, too bad, the civilians were in the area and they had to go." That would be a terrorist act in response to the situation. Indiscriminate killing. What is the difference? You don't blanket a populated urban area with rockets to get a couple of guys. It's bad ju ju.

Again 30:1 good ratio. Thats how America ended the Nazi problem and the problem in the pacific.
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You aren't a student of modern warfare are you?
WAR SUCKS.... Don`t start one if you don`t want to be hit back.
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I can agree with this.
 
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Lerxst said:
Thirty rockets blanketing a civilian occupied area where a single rocket came from is the definition of overkill. Indiscriminate carpet bombing in retaliation for a single rocket launch is a terrorist tactic. If Israeli soldiers were taking fire from a single sniper from an apartment building occupied by 200 civilians and in response fired rockets into the building through every window then went in and shot numerous people because they might be an escaping sniper...and said "oh well, too bad, the civilians were in the area and they had to go." That would be a terrorist act in response to the situation. Indiscriminate killing. What is the difference? You don't blanket a populated urban area with rockets to get a couple of guys. It's bad ju ju.


You aren't a student of modern warfare are you?

I can agree with this.
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This isn`t modern warfair the PLO is useing...those are tin cans with ignitors on them. Israel is useing state of the art guided missiles in an attempt to hit the target...terrorists. It is time for this to end and it seems half of palistine might have to die before they accept defeat. PLO / STOP THIS SILLYNESS,YOU`VE LOST.IT`S OVER. PEACE IS GOOD IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION.
 
Rodney said:
This isn`t modern warfair the PLO is useing...those are tin cans with ignitors on them. Israel is useing state of the art guided missiles in an attempt to hit the target...terrorists. It is time for this to end and it seems half of palistine might have to die before they accept defeat. PLO / STOP THIS SILLYNESS,YOU`VE LOST.IT`S OVER. PEACE IS GOOD IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION.
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Not only is peace good in this situation, it's a whole hell of a lot healthier.
 
PLO / STOP THIS SILLYNESS,YOU`VE LOST.IT`S OVER. PEACE IS GOOD IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION.
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That really depends on whether they feel their lives are worth living.
From what I've read, many of them seem to feel that their situation is intolerable, their lives unlivable, and it's all Israel's fault.
In that situation, there's no reason for them to stop fighting.
Whether the die (likely) or defeat Israel (unlikely) they'll still be better off than if they just stop fighting.
That may be their perspective, at any rate.
 
Rodney said:
This isn`t modern warfair the PLO is useing...those are tin cans with ignitors on them. Israel is useing state of the art guided missiles in an attempt to hit the target...terrorists. It is time for this to end and it seems half of palistine might have to die before they accept defeat. PLO / STOP THIS SILLYNESS,YOU`VE LOST.IT`S OVER. PEACE IS GOOD IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION.
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I was referring to the whole "this is how we beat Nazi Germany and Japan" thing you were talking about. We didn't beat them by a 30:1 bombing ratio. It was much more than complicated than that.

Modern warfare describes weapons and tactics that have come about during and after World War 2. Hence my comment. What Hamas is doing is in fact engaging in modern warfare because they are engaged in battle with the IDF and utilizing modern assault rifles, some Russian anti-tank missiles like the Sagger, anti-tank and anti-personnel land mines, remote detonated IED's, a small quantity of Russian man portable Surface to Air missiles, RPG's, grenades, and modern urban warfare tactics. Yes they are using Qassam rockets, which are truly rudimentary by modern standards, but that is just one piece of equipment they are using. Just because Israel truly outclasses them in weaponology and tactics doesn't mean this isn't modern warfare.

This is part of the problem when it comes to debating topics like this. The devil is in the details. Details will sneak up on you.
 
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1069 said:
That really depends on whether they feel their lives are worth living.
From what I've read, many of them seem to feel that their situation is intolerable, their lives unlivable, and it's all Israel's fault.
In that situation, there's no reason for them to stop fighting.
Whether the die (likely) or defeat Israel (unlikely) they'll still be better off than if they just stop fighting.
That may be their perspective, at any rate.
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I hear ya. "Intolerable" has started a lot of fights and kept them going. We have been there for all of their wars,and my guess is when they take out Irans nuke structures ,in the next year, we will be there and drawn into it. I`m not a big fan of watching Israels people and infrastructure fry at 10,000 degrees. How do we fast forward and get the muslim world into the 21st century?
 
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