Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

Goobieman · Jan 9, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

I never tire of seeing that.

Ikari · Jan 9, 2009

chevydriver1123 said:
Obama shouldn't even get involved, let Hamas and Israel kill each other.

I'm just about in this camp. I think it's horrible that neither side is willing to drop this issue. There's been too much war already, but they seem more than happy to keep plodding along with more. They can do as they like, but we should stay out of it.

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

Always re enforces the stupidity of the Israelis.
Very nice picture

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Tucker Case said:
Just the fact that they shoot rockets at civilians is a legitimate reason for Israel to get jumpy. If canada shot rockets at the US, there would be a serious and grave response.

I don;t agree with many Israeli tactics, but I can understand why they are rightfully pissed. I would be.

At the same time, I can also understand why the palestinians get pissed.

But ntice that when Israel gets pissed, they target Hamas leaders and Hamas staging points.

When the Palestinians...errrr...Arabs and Muslims get pissed, they send in suicide bombers and fire rockets to kill as many civilians as possible.

I understand what they're doing and why they say do it. But I have the moral courage to avoid drawing the absurd equivalencies that you and other must render to justify the Palestinians totally unacceptable behavior.

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

Tucker Case said:
Just the fact that they shoot rockets at civilians is a legitimate reason for Israel to get jumpy. If canada shot rockets at the US, there would be a serious and grave response.

I don;t agree with many Israeli tactics, but I can understand why they are rightfully pissed. I would be.

At the same time, I can also understand why the palestinians get pissed.

I would be too, i don't say that Israel doesn't have the right to retaliate. It is the scale and carelessness it has shown and especially the extent it has gone at it.
I personally now believe Israel wants to re occupy Gaza.

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Ikari said:
I'm just about in this camp. I think it's horrible that neither side is willing to drop this issue. There's been too much war already, but they seem more than happy to keep plodding along with more. They can do as they like, but we should stay out of it.

What stinking liberal arrogance.

They should just get over it.

~sheesh~

We shouldn't stay out of it. We should be willing to defend legitimate democracies from terrorist and socialist thugs. Instead, we get this sickening liberal arrogance that says Israel should get over the fact that her neighbors want and continue to attempt to wipe her off the map.

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
But ntice that when Israel gets pissed, they target Hamas leaders and Hamas staging points.

When the Palestinians...errrr...Arabs and Muslims get pissed, they send in suicide bombers and fire rockets to kill as many civilians as possible.

I understand what they're doing and why they say do it. But I have the moral courage to avoid drawing the absurd equivalencies that you and other must render to justify the Palestinians totally unacceptable behavior.

When was the last time there was a sucessful suicide attack in Israel killing civilians? A few years ago if i remember correctly.

Lmao, target Hamas?
It has hit UN and schools. It targets civilians like Hamas.
The difference? Hamas is honest at what it aims for.

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
I would be too, i don't say that Israel doesn't have the right to retaliate. It is the scale and carelessness it has shown and especially the extent it has gone at it.

Israel should be condemned because she can effectively defend herself? That's lunacy.

I personally now believe Israel wants to re occupy Gaza.

And that would be appropriate given that Gaza has effectively turned into a terror state attacking Israel.

The problem is?

Tucker Case · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
Riiight, they're jackasses (what an absurd way to describe terrorists :roll: ) because we offend them.

Where did I say that is why they are jackasses? I said "maybe" as in hypothetically.

That's genius right there.

That's not a very good ad hom. :mrgreen: Maybe you should call me a stinky poo-poo head or something? I like that one.

And no one has ignored Hamas. Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah are almost always in some diplomatic state or another.

Yes. So why the big deal if the US does so as well?

So a more serious effort would be? What? More and more and more and more and more and more and more talking?

Perhaps

You think like a child.

You're right. Claiming that trying to discussing things instead of resorting to violence is so childish. I remember that being taught in kindergarten so it must be childish.

It is that simple.

You think the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is "simple" but I'm the one thinking like a child?

That's an odd way of viewing the world, IMO.

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
Israel should be condemned because she can effectively defend herself? That's lunacy.

And that would be appropriate given that Gaza has effectively turned into a terror state attacking Israel.

The problem is?

Israel should be condemned for its disproportinate force of military use.
Its clear disregard for getting aid to civilians, the alleged use of phospohorus

Yes, thats the way to stop terrorism
Re occupy Palestinian land! Yay :roll:

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
When was the last time there was a sucessful suicide attack in Israel killing civilians? A few years ago if i remember correctly.

And...so what? So, I guess the Arabs and Muslims were running out of "volunteers" to kill themselves they begged Iran to arm them with rockets so they could launch attacks with impunity and raise the body count, eh?

Lmao, target Hamas?
It has hit UN and schools. It targets civilians like Hamas.
The difference? Hamas is honest at what it aims for.

Hmmm, what did I hear last night on NPR...oh yeah, Israel was dropping leaflets in neighborhoods in Gaza telling residents to evacuate because Israel was going to attack Hamas facilities there.

Oh, yeah, Hamas, still, uses schools to stockpile and luacnh their rockets.

I guess Hamas should be praised for at least declaring their intent to kill as many Jews as possible, huh?

What a disgusting attitude.

Goobieman · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
When was the last time there was a sucessful suicide attack in Israel killing civilians? A few years ago if i remember correctly.

Hmm.
Do you suppose Israel's efforts at securing her border haev anything to do with that?

Lmao, target Hamas?

It has hit UN and schools. It targets civilians like Hamas.
Civilians lime Hamas are legitimate targets.

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
And...so what? So, I guess the Arabs and Muslims were running out of "volunteers" to kill themselves they begged Iran to arm them with rockets so they could launch attacks with impunity and raise the body count, eh?

LOL
There is apparentley thousands willing to blow jews up but Iran [Yes Israel, go say thank you to Ahmadinejad] has refused and forbidded fighting.

Hmmm, what did I hear last night on NPR...oh yeah, Israel was dropping leaflets in neighborhoods in Gaza telling residents to evacuate because Israel was going to attack Hamas facilities there.

:rofl
LOL
Oh yes, drop a leaflet and they can run WHERE?
Another area of Gaza where soldiers are fighting and dropping bombs?
Attacking civilians. Hamas is the only side being honest about it.
It says something about the morality of a country when it cannot even admit it makes a mistake when it attacks a school filled with children does it not?
Doesn't Taliban and Al Qaeda use those methods?

No, for being honest about it.

Ikari · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
But ntice that when Israel gets pissed, they target Hamas leaders and Hamas staging points.

When the Palestinians...errrr...Arabs and Muslims get pissed, they send in suicide bombers and fire rockets to kill as many civilians as possible.

I understand what they're doing and why they say do it. But I have the moral courage to avoid drawing the absurd equivalencies that you and other must render to justify the Palestinians totally unacceptable behavior.

The terrorist rockets suck though. They hardly ever hit anything. You want to say that Israel goes after Hamas leadership; but which side kills more civilians? I've heard this excused too, a "shock and awe" strike. Take out enough civilians, and they'll learn through fear not to support Hamas. Though that's pretty much the definition of terrorism in and of itself. Yeah, the terrorists are launching rockets at random, but they're not guided, they don't have a terribly long range, they aren't accurate, and they mostly hit in middle of no where. Meanwhile, Israel uses US stuff which is the best in the world and will kill a lot of people; way way way more than the terrorists can even hope to get.

In the end it's a ****ty situation with no innocent side.

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

Goobieman said:
Hmm.
Do you suppose Israel's efforts at securing her border haev anything to do with that?.

No, not really.

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Tucker Case said:
Where did I say that is why they are jackasses? I said "maybe" as in hypothetically.

:roll:

In a word, gutless.

That's not a very good ad hom. :mrgreen: Maybe you should call me a stinky poo-poo head or something? I like that one.

Mocking your pathetic suggestions for even more talking was very effective.

Yes. So why the big deal if the US does so as well?

The US has been, fool.

Now, all that Obama is doing is rewarding Hamas for their illegitimate behavior.

Perhaps

Absurd. As if more and more and more and more talking is going to push Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran off of their core principle of destroying Israel.

You're right. Claiming that trying to discussing things instead of resorting to violence is so childish. I remember that being taught in kindergarten so it must be childish.

No, what is childish is your insinuation that their grievance is that they are being ignored.

You think the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is "simple" but I'm the one thinking like a child?

No, the point I made is a simple one.

Try again.

That's an odd way of viewing the world, IMO.

It would seem so to a terror apologist.

Goobieman · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
No, not really.

Of course not.
I wont bother to ask why.
:roll:

Ikari · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
What stinking liberal arrogance.

They should just get over it.

~sheesh~

I said both sides should drop it. It's obvious to anyone willing to look at history that they haven't gotten anywhere and all they've accomplished is killing off each others civilians. **** happened in the past, they need to acknowledge that but they also need to drop it. Understand that both sides did wrong, but continuing to do wrong isn't going anywhere. It's got a zero chance of happening, I think both sides are well too entrenched in war for this to even have occurred to them. It's probably occurred to their peoples, but not so much the leadership. It's not liberal arrogance, it's the best solution for a never ending war.

JMak said:
We shouldn't stay out of it. We should be willing to defend legitimate democracies from terrorist and socialist thugs. Instead, we get this sickening liberal arrogance that says Israel should get over the fact that her neighbors want and continue to attempt to wipe her off the map.

Why are we defining other people's government? Where in the Constitution does it say we're the world's police, or that we're to spread democracy? It's not our job to defend everyone, and Israel gets us nothing. It's a democracy sure, but a democracy in a land completely hostile to it. It has no influence over anything else there, it can't spread democracy by itself and it being there as a democracy (though I would say more a theocracy) doesn't do anything to encourage democracy amongst the neighbor states. If we want a democracy to defend, it should at least be one with some sway in the area (though I would still say we shouldn't be defending or fighting for others; our military is for us, or equipment is for us, our money is for us, the government wasn't authorized elsewise).

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
LOL
There is apparentley thousands willing to blow jews up but Iran [Yes Israel, go say thank you to Ahmadinejad] has refused and forbidded fighting.

Yeah, Iran is standing in the way of their proxy groups killing Jews. :roll:

:rofl
LOL
Oh yes, drop a leaflet and they can run WHERE?
Another area of Gaza where soldiers are fighting and dropping bombs?

Evacuate the neighborhood. It's a clear signal that the Israeli's are not targetting the civilians that your pals in Hamas deliberately put in harm's way.

Attacking civilians. Hamas is the only side being honest about it.
It says something about the morality of a country when it cannot even admit it makes a mistake when it attacks a school filled with children does it not?
Doesn't Taliban and Al Qaeda use those methods?

Huh? Yet another poster with an apology fetish. Israel has expressed its regret and righly points out that your pals are the ones responsible for their deaths as they deliberately put innocents in harm's way.

No, for being honest about it.

Oh, so lets credit their desire to kill as many innocents as they can, right?

Ooops, to you, there probably are no innocent Israeli's, right?

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
Yeah, Iran is standing in the way of their proxy groups killing Jews. :roll:

I suggest read a bit more news if you are not even aware of it.
I even used your favourite network
FOXNews.com - Iran Bans Homicide Bomber Volunteers, Saying It Will Assist Hamas in Other Ways - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

Evacuate the neighborhood. It's a clear signal that the Israeli's are not targetting the civilians that your pals in Hamas deliberately put in harm's way

.

War in Gaza: Israel accused of killing 30 after shelling safe house - Times Online

Not targeting civilians ... nope, they definetley evacuate ...

The United Nations has accused Israel of evacuating scores of Palestinians into a house in the suburbs of Gaza City, only to shell the property 24 hours later, killing some 30 people.

That is sick.
Evacuate civilians just to kill them later on.

Huh? Yet another poster with an apology fetish. Israel has expressed its regret and righly points out that your pals are the ones responsible for their deaths as they deliberately put innocents in harm's way.

Blame Hamas for the blood on their hands. Score! That makes sense :/

Ooops, to you, there probably are no innocent Israeli's, right?

Children are innocent

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Ikari said:
I said both sides should drop it.

Yeah, easy for some arrogant liberal to declare when you have nothing at stake.

It's obvious to anyone willing to look at history that they haven't gotten anywhere and all they've accomplished is killing off each others civilians.

The Arabs and Muslims believe they are winning as Israel continues conceding land that immediately becomes new launching points for terror attacks. They believe that they are winning because western civilization condemns Israel for defending herself.

**** happened in the past, they need to acknowledge that but they also need to drop it.

Again, stinking rotten liberal arrogance.

Understand that both sides did wrong, but continuing to do wrong isn't going anywhere.

The Muslims don't believe that they are doing wrong. Remember, it's us that consider them as resistance fighters and militants and thereby legitimze their actions.

It's not liberal arrogance, it's the best solution for a never ending war.

Your liberal arrogance blinds you to the fact that this is a never-ending war because one side doesn't want the other exist and they're not just fighting over lines in the sand.

Why are we defining other people's government? Where in the Constitution does it say we're the world's police, or that we're to spread democracy? It's not our job to defend everyone, and Israel gets us nothing.

Why what? We're not defining it. Israel is a democracy no matter how much you hate them.

And, no, it's not our job to defend everyone. No one is arguing that we should be.

It's a democracy sure, but a democracy in a land completely hostile to it.

So we should let this democracy be wiped out, eh?

It has no influence over anything else there, it can't spread democracy by itself and it being there as a democracy (though I would say more a theocracy) doesn't do anything to encourage democracy amongst the neighbor states. If we want a democracy to defend, it should at least be one with some sway in the area (though I would still say we shouldn't be defending or fighting for others; our military is for us, or equipment is for us, our money is for us, the government wasn't authorized elsewise).

Oh, so a democracy is onyl worth defending it that democracy can satisfy some set of conditions which are hardly identifiable or important.

Fail!

Laila · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
The Arabs and Muslims believe they are winning as Israel continues conceding land that immediately becomes new launching points for terror attacks. They believe that they are winning because western civilization condemns Israel for defending herself.

The Muslims don't believe that they are doing wrong. Remember, it's us that consider them as resistance fighters and militants and thereby legitimze their actions.

Wrong.
Muslims are guilty of doing wrong things and i'd be the first to admit it.
You however with your blind ignorant loyalty to Israel ignores everything Israel does wrong and blame the other side.

Wrong again.
Europe has always condemned Israel and we all know where US lies regarding Israel so nothing new.
The West will always condemn war and conflict.
1 million British protested against their own government in war, why should Israel be defended by the west?
Perhaps act like a civilized country and you might get somewhere.

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
I suggest read a bit more news if you are not even aware of it.
I even used your favourite network
FOXNews.com - Iran Bans Homicide Bomber Volunteers, Saying It Will Assist Hamas in Other Ways - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

And this means what, exactly? That the terrorists and Iran have opted for a more efficient way of killing Jews.

Props...I guess.

Not targeting civilians ... nope, they definetley evacuate ...

They're not. Your pals are.

The United Nations has accused Israel of evacuating scores of Palestinians into a house in the suburbs of Gaza City, only to shell the property 24 hours later, killing some 30 people.

Don't be shocked when I tell you that such accusations are hardly persuasive from an organization that I don't think has even once passed a resolution condemning Arab and Muslim terrorism against Israel.

That is sick.
Evacuate civilians just to kill them later on.

If it happened.

Blame Hamas for the blood on their hands. Score! That makes sense :/

Hamas is the side launching attacks from schools and densely populated neighborhoods...that you can't make sense of that simply reveals your sickening support of Arab and Muslim terrorists.

Children are innocent

I wish your pals in Syria and Iran agreed.

Tucker Case · Jan 9, 2009

JMak said:
:roll:

In a word, gutless.

Gutless? How so?

Mocking your pathetic suggestions for even more talking was very effective.

No, it wasn't "effective" mocking. It was quite boring. At least calling me a poo-poo head would have had a rudimentary form of humor. Sarcastically typing "genius" is not very effective. It makes you seem like you are incapable of actually making a point and must rely on ad hom instead of intellect. Quite the opposite of "effective", IMO.

The US has been, fool.

For trying and failing to isolate Hamas? Agreed.

Now, all that Obama is doing is rewarding Hamas for their illegitimate behavior.

Talking to them is a "reward"? How? They've already been given power in the region, what does talking to them do exactly?

Absurd. As if more and more and more and more talking is going to push Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran off of their core principle of destroying Israel.

If talking doesn't work, what's the difference? What is your fundamental grievance with an attempt, just an attempt, at diplomacy?

No, what is childish is your insinuation that their grievance is that they are being ignored.

As I said, it was a maybe statement. I do not profess to know the minds of Hamas. I know that not talking to them hasn't done **** except make things worse. So it follows that perhaps doing the opposite of what has failed is the correct approach.

No, the point I made is a simple one.

Try again.

The point you made was that the conflict was "simple" and could be summed up in once sentence. What else is there to "try again" at?

It would seem so to a terror apologist.

Overused, unoriginal, and simple-minded ad hom. You don't agree with me, so that means that I MUST be a terror apologist. Again, "poo-poo head" would have been a more intelligent attack on me personally.

JMak · Jan 9, 2009

Laila said:
Wrong.
Muslims are guilty of doing wrong things and i'd be the first to admit it.
You however with your blind ignorant loyalty to Israel ignores everything Israel does wrong and blame the other side.

Notice that I am not saying Israel has no role in this. What I do argue is that Israel's actions have far more legitimacy than their enemies.

You, on the other hand, as well as too many others, attempt to justify terrorism and blame the victims of terrorism for being terrorized.

Wrong again.
Europe has always condemned Israel and we all know where US lies regarding Israel so nothing new.

Hey, who said Euro anti-Semitism died following WWII?

The West will always condemn war and conflict.

Some will. Meanwhile, we see the western intelligencia rarely condemning terrorism as they blame the victims.

1 million British protested against their own government in war, why should Israel be defended by the west?

Because she is a sovereign nation. Because she has been under seige since her founding. Because the war against her is a war against Judaism.

Perhaps act like a civilized country and you might get somewhere.

Coming from someone whose religion only offers poverty, despair and terror.

No thanks.

Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

Goobieman

Ikari

Laila

JMak

Laila

JMak

Laila

JMak

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

Laila

JMak

Goobieman

Laila

Ikari

Laila

JMak

Goobieman

Ikari

JMak

Laila

JMak

Laila

JMak

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3

JMak