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Thread: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    OK.

    At this point, you're just avoiding answering the (as I said, relatively mundane) hypothetical. That's fine. It's your choice.

    But don't pretend you're doing anything other than that. You are demonstrating a textbook example of "protesting too much."
    I'm asking for proof of it's "relative mundane" status. You cannot provide proof. Therefore, you have created strawman argument. That's a textbook example of not being able to refute the claim with realistic means so you rely on imaginary ones.

    It does nto weaken my point that you cannot prove yours.

    Not acknowledging that you have failed to provide anything close to a legitimate argument is fine, that's your choice, but don't pretend you have given evidence of your hypothetical being a reality.

    Originally I said "there IS never a justification". Not that one couldn't be invented, just that it does not exist. If you provide evidence that such a legitimate threat exists, that justifies blowing up a school, I will relent and admit error.

    All I ask for is one real world example where a ground force is not a reasonable response instead of killing civilians. Only one example is all I require. If you cannto provide it, or refuse to do so, I'll accept that as you admitting that you created a straw-man argument by trying to apply my real world rationale to make-believe land.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Tucker. Dude.

    You're seriously arguing that by saying "there is never a justification," you're simply saying "there isn't one at this moment in time"? Really?

    Are you REALLY saying "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is"? I mean, really?

    It does not take much imagination to figure that an enemy will put weapons in a school if it knows we'll never bomb it. I give you more than enough credit that you understand that. Please give me the same respect back and just answer the damn hypo.

    Or, as I said, don't. It is your choice. But come ON. Really.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Hamas is known to launch attacks from atop houses and civilian buildings, transport terrorist inside abulences. They know that people in the west will freak out when Israel takes out these targets.

    Hamas 1, Israel 0 in the PR war.

  4. #234
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Hamas is known to launch attacks from atop houses and civilian buildings, transport terrorist inside abulences. They know that people in the west will freak out when Israel takes out these targets.

    Hamas 1, Israel 0 in the PR war.
    So what is YOUR solution to the conflict? Or did you just create this thread to bitch about someone ELSE trying to solve it?
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  5. #235
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Tucker. Dude.

    You're seriously arguing that by saying "there is never a justification," you're simply saying "there isn't one at this moment in time"? Really?

    Are you REALLY saying "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is"? I mean, really?

    It does not take much imagination to figure that an enemy will put weapons in a school if it knows we'll never bomb it. I give you more than enough credit that you understand that. Please give me the same respect back and just answer the damn hypo.

    Or, as I said, don't. It is your choice. But come ON. Really.
    You've stated that the Hypothetical is plausible, my contention is that it will never happen. I am willing to change my view if you show me that it is probable by showing a legitimate threat coming from a school.

    As far as the hypothetical goes, I honestly don't see it as plausible, so I can't answer it with honesty without defeating my own logic which I based on what I think is plausible.

    I truly do not think it is plausible for a legitimate threat to come form a school that cannot be defeated with ground forces instead of blowing up the school.

    If such a threat were to exist, I would need to change my logic as then it would have been based on a faulty premise (i.e. that it isn't plausible for a legitimate threat to come from a school).

    Perhaps, I overstated things by not clarifying that this is my initial premise. this is an over-heated discussion, and I apologize for any disrespect I may have given.

    Let me simply answer the hypothetical that you've described, but please the fact that I don't think that is a plausible scenario in mind:

    If a legitimate threat existed, that had a high probability of efficacy, such as a missile silo would, at a school, that school would cease to be a school in my opinion. It would become a legitimate military target specifically because it would become a legitimate military threat.

    That being said (conceded, if you will), the hypothetical does NOT apply to this particular situation for a multitude of reasons nor does it have any basis in reality in that it has never been seen to date.

    If I am wrong, and such a legitimate threat has ever existed within a school, I will retract my comments that there is never a justification to bomb a school. But as I have not been faced with that, only a hypothetical scenario I find implausible, I cannot in good conscious retract, since the scenario is not based on reality but only what I deem to be an implausible hypothetical that has never been reached to date.
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  6. #236
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Hamas is known to launch attacks from atop houses and civilian buildings, transport terrorist inside abulences. They know that people in the west will freak out when Israel takes out these targets.

    Hamas 1, Israel 0 in the PR war.
    I actually agree with this statement, Vicchio. But, if Hamas had technology great enough to become a legitimate threat to Israeli sovereignty, I don't think these methods would be employed. that's because they would ACTUALLY be a threat, not simply a gnat on the ass of a lion.

    The ONLY real weapon Hamas has is the PR weapon, so why does Israel play into their hands by performing like they are TRAINED to respond according to Hamas' game plan?
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So what is YOUR solution to the conflict? Or did you just create this thread to bitch about someone ELSE trying to solve it?
    Well, we could keep doing the same failed method as before.

    Hamas launches rockets into Israel, by the thousands, Israel responds, the world seeks "a way to end the violence!" and Israel is forced to stop. Hamas regroups, wash rinse repeat.

    OR we could make Israel give up more land, so that the Palestinians can find peace... wait did that, that just keeps bringing more rockets closer to Israeli cities.

    We could just let Israel achieve it's objective of smashing Hamas into nothing and seeing if that works, crazy notion, taking out the group that keeps launching rockets at Israel.

    Peace is an objective most often achieved not with words, but swords.

  8. #238
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Kudos to the IDF for this:

    UN: IDF officers admitted there was no gunfire from Gaza school which was shelled - Haaretz - Israel News

    They've admitted error in the specific bombing I was denouncing them for.
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  9. #239
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Well, we could keep doing the same failed method as before.

    Hamas launches rockets into Israel, by the thousands, Israel responds, the world seeks "a way to end the violence!" and Israel is forced to stop. Hamas regroups, wash rinse repeat.

    OR we could make Israel give up more land, so that the Palestinians can find peace... wait did that, that just keeps bringing more rockets closer to Israeli cities.

    We could just let Israel achieve it's objective of smashing Hamas into nothing and seeing if that works, crazy notion, taking out the group that keeps launching rockets at Israel.

    Peace is an objective most often achieved not with words, but swords.
    Israel has been fighting Hamas for 20 years, and other associated Palestinian groups for 40 years before that. If this peace could be achieved with swords, it would've happened a long time ago. What makes you think that THIS war will finally be the one that ends the conflict? I'm hard-pressed to see anything special or unique about this particular war compared with all the previous ones.

    It's time that Israel (and the United States) deals with Hamas. It is not a monolithic entity. The leadership is very much divided over whether to fight to the death or negotiate some kind of peace with Israel. The pragmatists within Hamas can be negotiated with.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-10-09 at 12:57 PM.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's time that Israel (and the United States) deals with Hamas. It is not a monolithic entity. The leadership is very much divided over whether to fight to the death or negotiate some kind of peace with Israel. The pragmatists within Hamas can be negotiated with.
    OK. I'd like for that to happen.

    But what can Hamas be given that will satisfy it, considering it specifically exists to destroy Israel?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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