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Thread: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Has there ever been a missle silo in a school to your knowledge?
    Doesn't there have to me a missile silo school somewhere? How else would they learn.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's a hypothetical. And absolutely not a far-fetched one. According to your stated principle -- that it's never justified -- in that situation, we'd have to mount a ground invasion.
    I'm just asking you to give evidence of your hypothetical having any probabilitywhatsoever, instead of your opinion of it's liklihood. I ask this so that it is not a far-fetched straw-man argument.

    See, although you give your opinion that it is not far-fetched to convert a school into a missile silo, I find that to be quite far-fetched. I want MORE than just your opinion, otherwise, it is definitively a straw-man argument.

    My stated principle in it being never justified is based in reality, not hypotheticals. If you can give me a real-world example of a legitimately dangerous threat (i.e. not mortars with very, VERY low rate of efficacy) coming from a school, I may change my stance, until then, continue to battle your straw-man.

    (Never mind how many more civilians that may kill along the way, right?)
    More civilians than a 40/3 ratio? You got any evidence to suggest that a ground assault on this target would kill more people than dropping a bomb on the target?

    Any evidence at all for this would be appreciated.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm just asking you to give evidence of your hypothetical having any probabilitywhatsoever, instead of your opinion of it's liklihood. I ask this so that it is not a far-fetched straw-man argument.

    See, although you give your opinion that it is not far-fetched to convert a school into a missile silo, I find that to be quite far-fetched. I want MORE than just your opinion, otherwise, it is definitively a straw-man argument.

    My stated principle in it being never justified is based in reality, not hypotheticals. If you can give me a real-world example of a legitimately dangerous threat (i.e. not mortars with very, VERY low rate of efficacy) coming from a school, I may change my stance, until then, continue to battle your straw-man.
    Dude.

    A "strawman" is making up something you didn't say and attributing it to you.

    YOU said:

    There is never sufficient justification for bombing a school, no matter how heinous the opponent is in their cowardly attempts to use that school to protect themselves.
    I constructed a hypothetical to test what YOU said. I never attributed that hypothetical to you as an argument. Therefore, it is not a strawman.

    You seem to be clinging to the word "silo." Fine. How about "launcher"?

    If you believe what you said, in your own words as quoted above, then you believe that if an enemy had a missile launcher in a school hundreds of miles inside its territory and attacked us with it, bombing that launcher would never be justified. We'd have to assault it by ground.

    Now, what's implausible about that? Is it because we have no enemies with long-range missiles? Is it because we have no enemies who have schools? Is it because we have no enemies with interiors hundreds of miles from their borders? Is it because we have no enemies who might put missile launchers in a school if they knew we'd never bomb it?

    Or is it because the hypothetical illustrates how ridiculous an absolute your statement is?

    Or . . . is it because it's a "principle" which applies only to the circumstances and players at hand in the present situation?


    More civilians than a 40/3 ratio? You got any evidence to suggest that a ground assault on this target would kill more people than dropping a bomb on the target?
    An invasion meant to take out a target hundreds of miles inland? The ratio may be considerably higher.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    IOW Obama is saying-

    Terrorism works.

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Dude.

    A "strawman" is making up something you didn't say and attributing it to you.
    Or overstating an argument by inventing an easier position to defeat. If it isn;t a strawman, give me one credible case of anything even remotely close to the situation happeneing. Hell, the situation we're DISCUSSING was because they were NEAR the school, not IN it.

    You seem to be clinging to the word "silo." Fine. How about "launcher"?
    I'm taking your words at face value. Now you say launcher. Big deal? It's a school. There is still no legitimate reason to blow it up if the threat does not even come close to outweighing the response.



    If you believe what you said, in your own words as quoted above, then you believe that if an enemy had a missile launcher in a school hundreds of miles inside its territory and attacked us with it, bombing that launcher would never be justified. We'd have to assault it by ground.
    Yes.

    Now, what's implausible about that? Is it because we have no enemies with long-range missiles? Is it because we have no enemies who have schools? Is it because we have no enemies with interiors hundreds of miles from their borders? Is it because we have no enemies who might put missile launchers in a school if they knew we'd never bomb it?
    If it is so probable, could you give me one, just ONE single solitary example of a legitimate threat being housed in a school. Just one.

    Or is it because the hypothetical illustrates how ridiculous an absolute your statement is?
    Its not ridiculouys. your hypothetical is until you prove that there has ever been a legit threat form a school.

    Or . . . is it because it's a "principle" which applies only to the circumstances and players at hand in the present situation?
    When did I say it only applies in this situation with the current players at hand?

    An invasion meant to take out a target hundreds of miles inland? The ratio may be considerably higher.
    Yeah. They don't use helicopter drops or nuthin' like that for these types of operations. the ONLY solution is to blow up the school. What was I thinking! The ONLY way to get from point A to point B is by land while killing every single solitary civilian along the way!
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    I'm inventing nothing.

    You're saying that under no circumstances, no matter how heinous or barbaric the enemy is in making a school a military target, it is never acceptable to bomb a school, ever.

    I came up with a relatively mundane hypothetical which doesn't assume much barabarism, just a natural reaction by an even mildly unscrupulous enemy to the knowledge that we would never bomb a school under any circumstances, and you dismiss it out of hand.

    The Soviets planted bombs on toys to blow the limbs off Afghani kids in order to demoralize their parents, and they were boy scouts compared to some people in the world. Do you really think someone simply housing a missile launcher in a school is beyond the pale? If so, your lack of imagination is staggering.

    Oh, and . . .

    Gaza Schoolyard Missile Launchers Discovered - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News
    Last edited by Harshaw; 01-10-09 at 12:25 AM.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    IOW Obama is saying-

    Terrorism works.
    Well, hasn't it? After 20 years of terrorism by Hamas (and many years of terrorism before that by related groups), Hamas is still there.

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After years of arrests, assassinations, and occupations, nothing has changed. How would YOU suggest Hamas be handled? If it was easy to just eliminate them by force, don't you think the Israelis would've done so a long time ago?
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Barack Obama administration 'prepared to talk to Hamas' | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Yeah, look at that, Obama wanting to reverse the decision to isolate Hamas. Just freaking brilliant. I'm sure the Israelis just feel all kinds of safe with this genius coming to the WH. He starts this crap up and the first notion they have Iran is gonna get a Bomb out they'll attack, cause were I them, I sure as **** wouldn't put my trust in Obama.
    Good for Obama. it is time to start talking and problem solving instead of killing and dying.

    Hooray for Obama and Hooray for the USA.

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I'm inventing nothing.

    You're saying that under no circumstances, no matter how heinous or barbaric the enemy is in making a school a military target, it is never acceptable to bomb a school, ever.

    I came up with a relatively mundane hypothetical which doesn't assume much barabarism, just a natural reaction by an even mildly unscrupulous enemy to the knowledge that we would never bomb a school under any circumstances, and you dismiss it out of hand.

    The Soviets planted bombs on toys to blow the limbs off Afghani kids in order to demoralize their parents, and they were boy scouts compared to some people in the world. Do you really think someone simply housing a missile launcher in a school is beyond the pale? If so, your lack of imagination is staggering.

    Oh, and . . .

    Gaza Schoolyard Missile Launchers Discovered - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News
    Let me reiterate since you seem to think a portable missile launcher qualifies:

    If it is so probable, could you give me one, just ONE single solitary example of a legitimate threat being housed in a school. Just one.

    You have yet to show me a legitimate threat existing that would warrant a school being blown up.

    Here, so that you are happy, let me change my original statment:

    Unless we enter Harshaws make-believe land of bubble-gum princes and gumdrop dragons, where schools are really transformers that change from schools into missile silos, there is never sufficient justification for bombing a school, no matter how heinous the opponent is in their cowardly attempts to use that school to protect themselves.
    You see, my statement did not delve into the land of make-believe. It dealt with reality. If you think a piss-ant little RPG is enough of a reason to slaughter children, then you are as bad as the terrorists.

    Until you show me a legitimate threat (Keyword: Legitimate) coming from a school, you might as well be talking about bubble-gum prince vs. the gumdrop dragon, because you're playing in the land of make-believe in order to justify killing children.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Let me reiterate since you seem to think a portable missile launcher qualifies:




    You have yet to show me a legitimate threat existing that would warrant a school being blown up.

    Here, so that you are happy, let me change my original statment:



    You see, my statement did not delve into the land of make-believe. It dealt with reality. If you think a piss-ant little RPG is enough of a reason to slaughter children, then you are as bad as the terrorists.

    Until you show me a legitimate threat (Keyword: Legitimate) coming from a school, you might as well be talking about bubble-gum prince vs. the gumdrop dragon, because you're playing in the land of make-believe in order to justify killing children.
    OK.

    At this point, you're just avoiding answering the (as I said, relatively mundane) hypothetical. That's fine. It's your choice.

    But don't pretend you're doing anything other than that. You are demonstrating a textbook example of "protesting too much."
    Last edited by Harshaw; 01-10-09 at 11:47 AM.
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