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Thread: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I see no point in trying to discuss this with you anymore. You have continually resorted to little more than ad hom and insults.
    Let's discuss just giving the Palestinians Detroit.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Let's discuss just giving the Palestinians Detroit.
    Jeez! That's just evil, man!
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But the mortars are very, very likely to be inneffective. Whereas the smart bomb is going to be quite effective.
    Not sure why you're aking this comparison
    Do you suggest that the Israelis allow sporadic mortar fire into their towns w/o response?

    If the target in question also happens to be a school, I think that ground forces are the answer.
    If you happen to have someoen in the area that gan get there before the mortars leave, sure. But, 99.99% of the time, that's not the case. The vast majority of the time, only artillery can react fast enough.

    Note also that a ground team doesnt ensure that there will be no, or even fewer, civilian casualties, expecially given that the terrorists will be more than happy to hide behind said civilians when facing the ground team.

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Let's discuss just giving the Palestinians Detroit.
    They already have Ann Arbor, so...

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    They already have Ann Arbor, so...
    I thought it was Dearborn.

    I know they have Bridgeview in Illinois.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not sure why you're aking this comparison
    Do you suggest that the Israelis allow sporadic mortar fire into their towns w/o response?
    No. I mentioned that they should respond with ground forces, even though it increases the risk on their soldiers.


    If you happen to have someoen in the area that gan get there before the mortars leave, sure. But, 99.99% of the time, that's not the case. The vast majority of the time, only artillery can react fast enough.
    I think the threat level is actually low enough that allowing a few mortars to go while the response is being done is worth the low level of risk it entails.

    Note also that a ground team doesnt ensure that there will be no, or even fewer, civilian casualties, expecially given that the terrorists will be more than happy to hide behind said civilians when facing the ground team.
    It doesn't ensure it, no, but it is more likely that if there are people on the ground commiting the response that the 40/3 ratio would be lower than it would be by simply blowing up the entire target.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No. I mentioned that they should respond with ground forces, even though it increases the risk on their soldiers.
    And, as noted, most of the time, this isnt possible.

    I think the threat level is actually low enough that allowing a few mortars to go while the response is being done is worth the low level of risk it entails.
    So... you DO suggest that the Israelis allow sporadic mortar fire into their towns w/o response, at least if the only effective response is artilery.

    Do you suppose this will result in more or fewer mortar attacks?

    It doesn't ensure it, no, but it is more likely that if there are people on the ground commiting the response that the 40/3 ratio would be lower than it would be by simply blowing up the entire target
    I'm not sure this is supportable. A firefight within a functioning school with one side willing to hide behind the kids creates the very real possibility of -massive- casualties

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    And, as noted, most of the time, this isnt possible.
    Agreed. Most of the time. In this specific case I think the effort was probably worth a go.


    So... you DO suggest that the Israelis allow sporadic mortar fire into their towns w/o response, at least if the only effective response is artilery.
    Only in this particular case. Not in general. I think it is prefferable to taking out a school, though.

    Do you suppose this will result in more or fewer mortar attacks?
    No.


    I'm not sure this is supportable. A firefight within a functioning school with one side willing to hide behind the kids creates the very real possibility of -massive- casualties
    I think it is would have been worth taking the chance, in this case. Let's say that there was a ground offensive, and then the civilian casualties were incurred, I wouldn't denounce Israel for that. I would accept that as having made a serious effort to try and minimize the casualties in this case with the school.

    In general, I support the decision to have made an invasion instead of simply sending bombs over. Obviously, during this invasion, civilian casualties will occur. I think the use of ground troops is better than a simple arial assault because it does help minimize civilian casualties.

    I'm talking about this specific instance, where a school was destroyed.

    Granted, the primary cause of this was Hamas. They are 110% undefendable for being within striking distance of a school while carrying out military operations. It is disgusting, cowardly, and inexcusable. The are the primary reason for the civilian casualties in this action, but Israel still bears some level of responsibility for choosing to respond to a minimal threat with maximum force.

    That's why I still feel that Israel should have tried to use ground troops in this case, even though they were under direct attack. This is based on the risk assement equation on the likelihood of civilian casualties on either side.

    I know it is an emotional argument because I am bothered by civilian casualties. Simply because I am saying in this particular case, more effort should have been made to prevent the destruction of the school, does not mean I am saying Hamas was correct to use this tactic or target Israeli civilians.
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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I know it is an emotional argument because I am bothered by civilian casualties. Simply because I am saying in this particular case, more effort should have been made to prevent the destruction of the school, does not mean I am saying Hamas was correct to use this tactic or target Israeli civilians.
    Sems to me that Israel does what it can when it can to minimize civilian casualties. Ultimately, the IDF is there to defend the people of Israel.

    If you were an Israeli, with your town under constant, if sporadic, mortar attack, would you react happily to the news that the IDFhas chosen to not stop the attacks because it is worried about Palestinian civilians?

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    Re: Obama camp 'prepared to talk to Hamas'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Sems to me that Israel does what it can when it can to minimize civilian casualties. Ultimately, the IDF is there to defend the people of Israel.

    If you were an Israeli, with your town under constant, if sporadic, mortar attack, would you react happily to the news that the IDFhas chosen to not stop the attacks because it is worried about Palestinian civilians?
    I'm not saying they should choose to not stop the attacks. I'm saying they should try to stop them in a different manner.

    If it were me, and I were an Israeli, I would applaud my government for trying to use a ground attacks instead of bombing a school.

    If they said some fire got through because they chose this route instead of just dropping a bomb on a school, I would applaud them in that decision as well because I'm not of the midset that "my" civilians are of more importance than "theirs".

    If they decided to stop trying to stop the attacks at all in general, I would be pissed, though.
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