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Thread: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    And who decides what the "good parts" and the "bad parts" are? How does this new system simply come into being without challenging the sovereignty of the system of states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra
    One thing to snap up from the Chinese model is their one party system and "working for the nation" attitude, rather than political bickering between groups.
    Their one party system provides zero representation to the public though. No one elects their leaders, so the leaders don't really have to listen to any of the peoples' qualms. It also affects the courts, and the ability of people to bring challenges to the state. For instance, after the milk contamination crisis, anyone who brought challenges to the courts were blocked. People were even detained for protesting.

    The system doesn't work if people's freedom is hindered and they can't express themselves, nor does it work without a sense of justice.

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    And who decides what the "good parts" and the "bad parts" are? How does this new system simply come into being without challenging the sovereignty of the system of states?
    Well, I think all societies need to rethink their way of governance and bring on political and governmental changes. We have to reform, it will be a process, I think everyone from kings to the tiny people to some degree have to be part of making a new system.

    What do you mean by "How does this new system simply come into being without challenging the sovereignty of the system of states?"..

    I am not actually saying HOW the system should be, I am really only saying that we need a new political system, mainly I am talking about western democracies right now. The only thing clear is that we need to adopt a hybrid system which takes the best of each system for the sake of the following:

    -Give as much freedom to the people as possible
    -Minimize government interference
    -But at the same time bring back strength and validity(credibility) to governments
    -Remove the sick parts of democracy
    -Bring politics back into politics
    -Encourage long term planning of our societies(as a main responsibility of governance)
    -Make governments more elitists and less average
    -"Set terms", for the society to work around

    These are just a few things..
    I basically think we have to redefine the responsibilities of governance and politics and limit them. But at the same time we need to make sure politics really have an effect and that politics is not about elections, but about results, long term results. We need to remove "individuality" and "idolization" from politics and simply think of it as "the governing body of politicians", where everyone works together for the best solutions, and where politics overall, not individuals, present this to the people. Politics must more neatly become a singular entity that works for the PEOPLE and the STATE, rather than individual or other type of interests. We need to remove corruption, and we need to make it possible for the people to surveillance and follow the political process in a political way, not an entertaining way. We must bring back accountability to politics, and remove the "circus politics" that we see today".. We must create a society with long term sustainable plans to build and prosper around, all the while people live their own lives free from the stranglehold and constant changes of situation that we live in today. We need our governments to be fiscally responsible and invest and save into our future, rather than make us all poor by indenting us.

    Politics of today is so flawed that its impossible to start somewhere, or even cover a small percentage of what should be changed, but deep inside us, we all know politics of todays, and governance of today inst working. All we need is stability and sustainable development, which hits all people in the society. We dont need a "circus politics" with constant dramatics, all we need is for them to take care of the people, while letting the people operate independently for themselves. Politics and governance only need to be a foundation for the people to operate around, it need not interfere with all walks of our lives, nor the live of the nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Their one party system provides zero representation to the public though. No one elects their leaders, so the leaders don't really have to listen to any of the peoples' qualms. It also affects the courts, and the ability of people to bring challenges to the state. For instance, after the milk contamination crisis, anyone who brought challenges to the courts were blocked. People were even detained for protesting.

    The system doesn't work if people's freedom is hindered and they can't express themselves, nor does it work without a sense of justice.
    I like the elitist part of the one party system in China as well. But then I have to repeat again after reading your post that I do not adore any system, nor wish for the adoption of any singular current or past system. I want a hybrid system, which takes the best from all.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Thats the whole point, there are no parties, everyone is independent and vote on case to case basis. Everyone just does what they think is best for the people and the country, rather than gang up to beat the other gang.
    The more complex question is, how can that function? How can we avoid people grouping together? Thats the complicated answer.
    That IS the question I asked, yes. You can't stop people from gathering together in coffee houses and living rooms and deciding on a common goal and banding together for solidarity. Not without totalitarianism.

    Political reform, dedicated politicians, making parties/groupings illegal, surveillance of the political process and so on are a good beginning.
    And here it is, the beginning of that totalitarianism. Government agents busting up private meetings, people being disappeared in the middle of the night . . .

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    China is a better version of political rule than the US for example.
    Sure. It doesn't let those pesky citizens with their own ideas of how they might want to conduct their own lives get in the way of things.

    All they want is to do whats best for the people and the state


    Even if that were true, you do realize that what's "best" for "the people" and for "the state" are often contradictory?

    as opposed to the US where two parties bicker against each other and forget that their job is to work for the best of the people and the state.
    No, that's not their job. Their job is to make it so that people can go on with their daily lives with a minimum of interference, to maximize the fruits of liberty and individual rights. The people themselves work for their own best as they see fit.

    Gridlock is good. The less the government does, the fewer laws it passes, the better off we all are.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Harshaw, just wanted to point out that China is not a fascist nation, but a one-party rule system.
    It's Communist, which shares its philosophical roots with fascism.


    There is a big difference. Fascism relies upon a single leader to call all the shots. The communist party in China still votes on things collectively, and one person does not make all the decisions.
    That's not particularly true. The head of state in China has powers on par with any fascist dictator, and under the fascist governments, the parties still voted on the same kinds of things the Communist party in China vote on.

    Besides, it's not like there's one pat definition of a fascist state set in stone. German fascism differed somewhat from Italian fascism. And their Communist cousins weren't particularly different from how they did much of anything. It's just a slightly different mix of most of the same ingredients.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    But surely, none of this is relevant for the post we are within..
    On the contrary, it is absolutely relevant, because it springs entirely from the motivation you have for posting these topics.

    You're not a particularly original character; you're seizing upon an economic downturn to push "revolutonary" ideas. Your kind always crops up at times like these. True, you lot gain more traction the worse it gets and the more scared people are, so you like to fan the flames. Things were particularly bad in the 1930s, so your intellectual kin were given a free reign in too many places, and Europe was bombed flat in the 1940s as a result. Among other things.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That IS the question I asked, yes. You can't stop people from gathering together in coffee houses and living rooms and deciding on a common goal and banding together for solidarity. Not without totalitarianism.



    And here it is, the beginning of that totalitarianism. Government agents busting up private meetings, people being disappeared in the middle of the night . . .

    Son, if the armband fits, wear it.
    Surveilance OF the politicians BY the people(or people who represent the people and not politics)..
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Sure. It doesn't let those pesky citizens with their own ideas of how they might want to conduct their own lives get in the way of things.
    People in China are almost as free as people in the US. Especially now with all the decreases of freedom in the US and further state involvement. If there is any state close to being a fascist state its the US.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Even if that were true, you do realize that what's "best" for "the people" and for "the state" are often contradictory?

    Thats why we should look for complex yet simple solutions, rather than half functioning simple minded but complicated solutions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, that's not their job. Their job is to make it so that people can go on with their daily lives with a minimum of interference, to maximize the fruits of liberty and individual rights. The people themselves work for their own best as they see fit.

    Gridlock is good. The less the government does, the fewer laws it passes, the better off we all are.
    And yet, in the US people get less and less freedoms, while people in China get more and more.. So who is REALLY working for the people?
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's Communist, which shares its philosophical roots with fascism.




    That's not particularly true. The head of state in China has powers on par with any fascist dictator, and under the fascist governments, the parties still voted on the same kinds of things the Communist party in China vote on.

    Besides, it's not like there's one pat definition of a fascist state set in stone. German fascism differed somewhat from Italian fascism. And their Communist cousins weren't particularly different from how they did much of anything. It's just a slightly different mix of most of the same ingredients.
    Id say the US for example relies MORE on one single decision maker than China, what Orion is saying is true, they take their decisions collectively. Thats the point I am looking for here anyways. All that you refer to is the worst of all systems I mention, yet I have repeatedly said we should collect the best of every system. Nor did I say we should adopt the fascist system alltogether, like you make it sound. But many things of fascism are pretty good, wouldnt you agree? Then we just root out the bad and put them on the "no no list".

    All thoughout this post contrary to what you believe I have called for abolishing of single leaders and decision makers, and even small such groups. Collective decision making is far superior.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 01-11-09 at 03:39 PM.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    On the contrary, it is absolutely relevant, because it springs entirely from the motivation you have for posting these topics.

    You're not a particularly original character; you're seizing upon an economic downturn to push "revolutonary" ideas. Your kind always crops up at times like these. True, you lot gain more traction the worse it gets and the more scared people are, so you like to fan the flames. Things were particularly bad in the 1930s, so your intellectual kin were given a free reign in too many places, and Europe was bombed flat in the 1940s as a result. Among other things.
    Its not relevant at all.. The reason I posted this thread was because I read the news and wanted to share them with you..
    Afterall, these are new numbers, and the category we are posting in is "breaking news", which it was.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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