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Thread: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    This just in: the economy currently sucks. Thanks Maximus!

    The OP wasn't to discuss an ecnomic analysis, it was to point the finger and talk about how better the EU is. The EU has its own problems and it's not a perfect system. Just wait until Turkey joins!

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Not really.. I dont want fascism at all. I want hybrid models for politics and economics of nations which draws the best traits from each model.
    Right. Never mind that the conditions which allow the "best traits" are often contradictory and mutually exclusive. "Efficiency," for example, comes from a lack of deliberation and an abundance of central autocracy, both of which are antithetical to freedom and choice.

    Of course, as you cite China and the EU as your top models, that probably doesn't concern you much. Besides, letting people decide too much for themselves about their lives only leads to the kinds of problems we have today, right? Best to leave that kind of decision-making to the people who know best, no?

    You wouldn't be the first to think you can create a kinder, gentler fascism; you won't be the last, and it's certain that more blood will one day be spilled defeating yet another attempt, which will inevitably go the same way all the others have.

    And it will probably have originated in the mind of a bored Euro who disdains the bourgeois, as it always does. Hmmm.

    But I know . . . you have it all figured out, right? You know how to make it "work," right? This time, I'm SURE, it'll be different.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    This just in: the economy currently sucks. Thanks Maximus!

    The OP wasn't to discuss an ecnomic analysis, it was to point the finger and talk about how better the EU is. The EU has its own problems and it's not a perfect system. Just wait until Turkey joins!
    Did I ever say it was? Its not perfect at all, its pretty much imperfect like the US, but its slightly better though, because its more diverse, and not so singular and extreme by nature.

    The economy doesn't currently suck, the meltdown is currently strongly underestimated and handled in the wrong way, sure it sucks right now, but if it keeps being handled in the wrong way, then it will completely collapse, and there will be no economy left. When there is no economy left and the desperation will get to great, people tend to lean towards extremism, and in the US there is growing extremism and polarization, huge political gaps, a broken political system and a people who will get angry at the politicians for ruining their country. In the end such discontempt, and an economic collapse which goes to far could be very dangerous, especially considering the extreme political climate in the US. I am worried about the consequences, I dont want the US to create a third world war, but the alternative of civil war, doesnt sound so attractive either.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Right. Never mind that the conditions which allow the "best traits" are often contradictory and mutually exclusive. "Efficiency," for example, comes from a lack of deliberation and an abundance of central autocracy, both of which are antithetical to freedom and choice.

    Of course, as you cite China and the EU as your top models, that probably doesn't concern you much. Besides, letting people decide too much for themselves about their lives only leads to the kinds of problems we have today, right? Best to leave that kind of decision-making to the people who know best, no?

    You wouldn't be the first to think you can create a kinder, gentler fascism; you won't be the last, and it's certain that more blood will one day be spilled defeating yet another attempt, which will inevitably go the same way all the others have.

    And it will probably have originated in the mind of a bored Euro who disdains the bourgeois, as it always does. Hmmm.

    But I know . . . you have it all figured out, right? You know how to make it "work," right? This time, I'm SURE, it'll be different.
    Whats most important, efficiency or stability? I would say stability.. I would easily donate a few thousand per capita GDP to know that we would always have stable growth.
    You talk about freedom, yet there is no freedom about democracy, its a sham model which claims it empowers the people, it clearly does not, especially not in a two party democracy, nor in a two sided, multi party democracy, which most European democracies are turning into.
    Freedom is freedom of speech and freedom to take your own actions and decide your own life, that is one of the things that would be kept. But retard democratic government with a bunch of average fools with no ambitions that only mismanages the country and the economy, that should be a thing of the past, that I do not want.
    Only short term profit focus, no, that is uneccessary, but it can still exist in a more planned economy, which is built around sustainability and stability and focuses on avoiding booms and busts.

    You simply just dont understanding anything other than "what is", and you like everyone else is just to damn ready to accept even the most stinky model, just because it doesnt suck completely. Your current model is unstable, dangerous, politicians are dumb average people, people are stupidifed by the political process, your country and economy is greatly mismanaged, yet you do not care, yet you do not want political and economical reform, you just scream and wave "democracy and more power to the free market(companies)"...
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Did I ever say it was? Its not perfect at all, its pretty much imperfect like the US, but its slightly better though, because its more diverse, and not so singular and extreme by nature.
    Each has their pros and cons... neither is generally "better". I would also argue that in an increasingly globalized world, the risk is now distributed globally... so the cons of one region becomes the cons of all. Same with the pros. Your "us vs. them" mentally indicates a separation that, frankly, is becoming less apparent.

    I don't know if you purposefully do it or not, but your posts have an anti-American ring to them that does not inspire people to take your side, even if you are right. You can analyze economy without the need to refer your opinion about which country is more superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    The economy doesn't currently suck, the meltdown is currently strongly underestimated and handled in the wrong way, sure it sucks right now, but if it keeps being handled in the wrong way, then it will completely collapse, and there will be no economy left.
    Who is underestimating it? Given that major economies like the U.S., Britain, and Japan are now in full recession, I think everyone is concerned. The economy is not about to completely disappear. Even if the worst case scenario happened - a depression - solutions would be sought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    When there is no economy left and the desperation will get to great, people tend to lean towards extremism, and in the US there is growing extremism and polarization, huge political gaps, a broken political system and a people who will get angry at the politicians for ruining their country. In the end such discontempt, and an economic collapse which goes to far could be very dangerous, especially considering the extreme political climate in the US. I am worried about the consequences, I dont want the US to create a third world war, but the alternative of civil war, doesnt sound so attractive either.
    Speaking of extreme.

    I agree that if the economies of certain nations tank and enter a depression, then people will get more poor and more desperate, but that's not why the U.S. is polarized at the moment. The sociocultural polarization of America has been going on for a long time and is partly the product of a growing culture war. The past 8 years have increased the phenomenon, but the current recession is something new. Even in prosperous times, there were tensions.

    As for a third world war or a second American civil war, I have no idea what you are basing that upon. Crappy economy or not, no one is going to forget what mutually assured destruction means.

    Though, I do consider the possibility that rough economic times will bring more military campaigns, especially from the nations that have conservative leaderships. Desperate times tend to cause right-wing leaning governments to incite wars in order to win support and distract from the homefront, but things would have to get really bad before that happens.

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Each has their pros and cons... neither is generally "better". I would also argue that in an increasingly globalized world, the risk is now distributed globally... so the cons of one region becomes the cons of all. Same with the pros. Your "us vs. them" mentally indicates a separation that, frankly, is becoming less apparent.

    I don't know if you purposefully do it or not, but your posts have an anti-American ring to them that does not inspire people to take your side, even if you are right. You can analyze economy without the need to refer your opinion about which country is more superior.



    Who is underestimating it? Given that major economies like the U.S., Britain, and Japan are now in full recession, I think everyone is concerned. The economy is not about to completely disappear. Even if the worst case scenario happened - a depression - solutions would be sought.



    Speaking of extreme.

    I agree that if the economies of certain nations tank and enter a depression, then people will get more poor and more desperate, but that's not why the U.S. is polarized at the moment. The sociocultural polarization of America has been going on for a long time and is partly the product of a growing culture war. The past 8 years have increased the phenomenon, but the current recession is something new. Even in prosperous times, there were tensions.

    As for a third world war or a second American civil war, I have no idea what you are basing that upon. Crappy economy or not, no one is going to forget what mutually assured destruction means.

    Though, I do consider the possibility that rough economic times will bring more military campaigns, especially from the nations that have conservative leaderships. Desperate times tend to cause right-wing leaning governments to incite wars in order to win support and distract from the homefront, but things would have to get really bad before that happens.
    As I said, even YOU are underestimating the "recession".. The problem this time is not the economy itself, but the structures, both political and economic structures are collapsing at the same time..

    If you asked anyone a few years in a depression would ever be possible in the capitalistic world in 2006 or beyond, most people would say no, but its happening, and its happening for completely different reasons than we think, our outlooks on the economy are to single focused on the past, and grouping and putting things into categories and so on. This collapse isnt because of the house loans or anything, its because of a loss of faith in the capitalistic system, and until now, this have unrolled rather slow, but when all the dark secretes of capitalism is slowly revealed it can only go one way. Unless we reform both our economic structure and system and our political equivalent, then there is going to be no talk of depression, but rather collapse. The danger is the same in Europe, but its unfolding slower, because socialism and stability is partly rescuing us, but the underlaying problems are just about the same as in the US, just not so visible.

    Btw, I never said polarization and extremism is related to or a consequence of the economic collapse. I was just mentioning it because an economic collapse in a situation with such realities will be far worse than an economic collapse in a stable and non extreme, non polarized political environment.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 01-10-09 at 10:48 AM.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Whats most important, efficiency or stability? I would say stability.. I would easily donate a few thousand per capita GDP to know that we would always have stable growth.
    You talk about freedom, yet there is no freedom about democracy, its a sham model which claims it empowers the people, it clearly does not, especially not in a two party democracy, nor in a two sided, multi party democracy, which most European democracies are turning into.
    Freedom is freedom of speech and freedom to take your own actions and decide your own life, that is one of the things that would be kept. But retard democratic government with a bunch of average fools with no ambitions that only mismanages the country and the economy, that should be a thing of the past, that I do not want.
    Only short term profit focus, no, that is uneccessary, but it can still exist in a more planned economy, which is built around sustainability and stability and focuses on avoiding booms and busts.

    You simply just dont understanding anything other than "what is", and you like everyone else is just to damn ready to accept even the most stinky model, just because it doesnt suck completely. Your current model is unstable, dangerous, politicians are dumb average people, people are stupidifed by the political process, your country and economy is greatly mismanaged, yet you do not care, yet you do not want political and economical reform, you just scream and wave "democracy and more power to the free market(companies)"...
    And again, you speak the exact language of the fascists.

    And you make broad assumptions about what we know or don't know or do or don't care about based on nothing but your fascist fantasies. I, however, have your own copious words to draw from.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And again, you speak the exact language of the fascists.

    And you make broad assumptions about what we know or don't know or do or don't care about based on nothing but your fascist fantasies. I, however, have your own copious words to draw from.

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence. Fascist governments typically seek to prepare a nation for armed conflict with other nations, to defend itself or to expand its state to allow for the growth of a nation. Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of of the nation or a race.

    Fascist movements commonly oppose: communism, conservatism, democracy, individualism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism, liberalism, and pacifism. In addition to explicit opposition to these ideologies and systems, fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.
    I am anti-nationalist, anti-authoritarian, but pro hybrid and intelligent governance.. What has that got to do with fascism?
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    If you're not willing to own the label, don't speak the language. But no matter what you call it, it is what it is.

    What's incontrovertible is that yours is the mindset from which fascism and its intellectual cousins all spring.

    "Anti-authoritarian." Indeed. Perhaps you should delve into your beloved EU and China a little more deeply with a little more thoughtfulness.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    If you're not willing to own the label, don't speak the language. But no matter what you call it, it is what it is.

    What's incontrovertible is that yours is the mindset from which fascism and its intellectual cousins all spring.

    "Anti-authoritarian." Indeed. Perhaps you should delve into your beloved EU and China a little more deeply with a little more thoughtfulness.
    Beloved EU? Who every said i loved the EU? I just find it the most modern of any governments in the world. Its also full of flaws, but certainly not authoritarian...

    Yes, and I always said that. To adopt the best of each model, including fascism..

    I am anti-authoritarian, pro-freedoms, anti-nationalism, pro-regulations, but anti-strong government involvement(pro "set terms", for society to work around, like for example permanent flat tax rate, permanent interest rates and so on), i am anti media+politics, pro equal opportunities, and yes, I am pro a one party system where everyone works FOR the nation and the PEOPLE, rather than a two sided system that works against each others. I want different government institutions and politics, I want to make politics incorruptible and every politician independent of groupings, I also want more elites in politics, and less average fools..
    I want separation of media and politics, and surveillance of every part of the political process, I also want separation of corporations and politics, by making lobbying and such illegal.

    I havent explained to you even 1/100th of my beliefs, so your claims that I am fascist I take with a pinch of salt on my fried eggs.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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