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Thread: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Ahhr. I see i got that a bit wrong. But the average including the stimulous package will be $1.5 trillion this and the next budget year.

    Anyways, its a SEVERE problem and an alarm to everyone who have US based assets..
    Maximus that is how our capitalism based economy works. It is an ebb and flow. It goes up and down depending on many factors.

    We have had 3 major depressions and many recessions since 1797. It is the way it works. Periods of inflation followed by periods of deflation (like now.)

    Now I am no expert on economics by any means. I have no idea how the world market will be affected or affect the US economy. But we are not headed for a collapse by any means. We have weathered much worse.

    This chart should clue you in when you see the long list of panics, depressions etc...

    List of recessions in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    But this time its just worse. And any strong future economy is not simply capitalist. IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart. I think this is whats happening right now, US are furthest ahead as a capitalist nation, and will fall apart first, then Europe will follow if we do not make some changes, and then any other capitalist place..

    Same for democracy, like it is now, its a certain way to general public retardation and political irrelevancy.

    The world hasnt only lost faith in your economy, but it is really largely starting to loose faith in your models as well. That is harder to fix.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    But this time its just worse.
    Worse than the great depression? That is laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    And any strong future economy is not simply capitalist. IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart. I think this is whats happening right now, US are furthest ahead as a capitalist nation, and will fall apart first, then Europe will follow if we do not make some changes, and then any other capitalist place..
    In the end it has to collapse? Do you know anything about economics at all or are you just assuming with no real information?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Same for democracy, like it is now, its a certain way to general public retardation and political irrelevancy.
    We are not a democracy, we are a representative republic. France is a democracy, the EU is a form of democracy.

    So you are saying that democracy leads to "public retardation and political irrelevancy." I would agree with that assessment.

    "The United States is, indeed, a republic, not a democracy. - ThisNation.com--Is the United States a democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    The world hasnt only lost faith in your economy, but it is really largely starting to loose faith in your models as well. That is harder to fix.
    According to who? You?

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    But this time its just worse. And any strong future economy is not simply capitalist. IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart. I think this is whats happening right now, US are furthest ahead as a capitalist nation, and will fall apart first, then Europe will follow if we do not make some changes, and then any other capitalist place..

    Same for democracy, like it is now, its a certain way to general public retardation and political irrelevancy.

    The world hasnt only lost faith in your economy, but it is really largely starting to loose faith in your models as well. That is harder to fix.
    Believe it or not, I'm going to need more than your hunch to believe that this will be the worst economic collapse in the past 225 years.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Believe it or not, I'm going to need more than your hunch to believe that this will be the worst economic collapse in the past 225 years.
    I dont know if I even care to debate this. its such a HUGE topic. Not suitable for this thread at least. I believe what I believe because capitalism and democracy are both reaching a maturity where both of them are collapsing, both are unsustainable models that ALWAYS will lead to instability, confusion, stagnation, decline and collapse.
    If capitalism by some miracle is rescued this time, it will eventually collapse anyways. Politics dominated by democracy will always lead to an intellectual, political and governmental decline and long term collapse.
    Just look at politics in the US today, as compared with intellectual politics of the past, look at what it has become, and is becoming slowly in all democratic countries.
    Capitalism will never work as a good model, because a society needs stability and sustainable development, not speculation and speculation based development, bust and booms, that just aint going to work..

    I know this is a completely unsatisfying explanation, perhaps even strange to comprehend the deeper meaning of it, but if you care for it we could debate it in another thread or two.

    The financial crisis we see now is just a result of a bad economic model, simply put, a good model would have no such thing.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Worse than the great depression? That is laughable.

    In the end it has to collapse? Do you know anything about economics at all or are you just assuming with no real information?
    My official economic studies are limited, only a few years. But since I ended school I have studied economics greatly, its one of my main areas of interests. I read economic statistics for snacks, and 250 page economic analyzes as entertainment. I think I know what I am talking about.

    I am not saying that this financial crisis will definetely be far worse than the great depression, or that what we are seeing now is the eventual economic meltdown that WILL come as a result of major parts of the economy being based around speculation and unsustainable economic activity. A collapse now will not be of the same character at all as the great depression, it will be completely different, and severe in perhaps other ways, so comparing to the great depression 8 decades ago is just the completely wrong way of thinking of this. The end conclusion is in all ways of looking at it that our economies are unstable, unsustainable highly speculative capitalist economies which cannot go on the same way they have been. Any future economy have to be based around REAL growth, fundamental change, sustainable and well planned progress, long term changes and so on. I think the potential for growth for the economies of individuals are almost completely tapped, we now have to focus on the economy of nations, states and the world. We cannot have economies that CAN collapse, if you understand, we have to build economies that CANNOT collapse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    We are not a democracy, we are a representative republic. France is a democracy, the EU is a form of democracy.
    Yes, you are a functioning democracy. France also yes. Most European countries are. But France is in the same general area of democratic collapse as the US and the UK, while others are lagging behind in "public retardation and political irrelevancy"



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    According to who? You?
    According to statistics, economic evalutations, news, the dollar, the Euro, the pound(especially) and so on.
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    My official economic studies are limited, only a few years. But since I ended school I have studied economics greatly, its one of my main areas of interests. I read economic statistics for snacks, and 250 page economic analyzes as entertainment. I think I know what I am talking about.
    Then instead of speculation you need to post evidence. Otherwise it is nothing but lip service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I am not saying that this financial crisis will definetely be far worse than the great depression, or that what we are seeing now is the eventual economic meltdown that WILL come as a result of major parts of the economy being based around speculation and unsustainable economic activity.
    You sort of did. After I posted the list of recessions and depressions over the last 200+ years. One that lasted 23 years I mite add. Your first comment out of the box was "But this time its just worse." with no evidence to back it up at all.

    Then you go on to state "IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart." Now you say you were not saying this?

    Capitalism has yet to fall apart on any scale. As I have conclusively shown it does go up and down. It is the nature of the beast and unlike your comment "Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress" is absolutely not true. Progress is indeed driven by the market. Without it no market will exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    A collapse now will not be of the same character at all as the great depression, it will be completely different, and severe in perhaps other ways, so comparing to the great depression 8 decades ago is just the completely wrong way of thinking of this.
    That would depend greatly on what your definition of "economic collapse" is.

    You again are offering speculation backed up only by your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    The end conclusion is in all ways of looking at it that our economies are unstable, unsustainable highly speculative capitalist economies which cannot go on the same way they have been.
    Show me a stable economy and I will show you fantasy land. It has never happened. Look at your world history. A stable economy can and does happen for a time and then a period of instability sets in, ALWAYS. This is not speculation but economics 101.

    Since your end conclusion (is again) backed up by no evidence, why should I even consider it viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Any future economy have to be based around REAL growth, fundamental change, sustainable and well planned progress, long term changes and so on. I think the potential for growth for the economies of individuals are almost completely tapped, we now have to focus on the economy of nations, states and the world. We cannot have economies that CAN collapse, if you understand, we have to build economies that CANNOT collapse.
    Well what is your plan? Great minds in history and today have yet to come up with anything that has been more successful than good old capitalism. I am dying to hear your plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Yes, you are a functioning democracy. France also yes. Most European countries are. But France is in the same general area of democratic collapse as the US and the UK, while others are lagging behind in "public retardation and political irrelevancy"
    Democratic collapse! Thats a new one.

    Who are the "others" of which you speak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    According to statistics, economic evalutations, news, the dollar, the Euro, the pound(especially) and so on.
    Well where are the "statistics" so I can take a look at them?

  8. #28
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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Then instead of speculation you need to post evidence. Otherwise it is nothing but lip service.

    You sort of did. After I posted the list of recessions and depressions over the last 200+ years. One that lasted 23 years I mite add. Your first comment out of the box was "But this time its just worse." with no evidence to back it up at all.

    Then you go on to state "IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart." Now you say you were not saying this?

    Capitalism has yet to fall apart on any scale. As I have conclusively shown it does go up and down. It is the nature of the beast and unlike your comment "Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress" is absolutely not true. Progress is indeed driven by the market. Without it no market will exist.

    That would depend greatly on what your definition of "economic collapse" is.

    You again are offering speculation backed up only by your opinion.
    I already said in a post to another, that its a HUGE topic that I do not know if I care to debate, especially it doesnt fit in this thread, perhaps I will debate it in another thread, some day soon. Its just a massive topic, I hope you understand.
    But know this, we are in 2009, we have developed far enough to build models that are focused around stability and sustainability, but all parts of the society would have to change for that to be possible, especially politics and economics(or capitalism and democracy).. I am not saying that we should toss away capitalism alltogether, but we need to completely rebuild it, nor am I saying democracy needs to be tossed away alltogether, but we need to completely rebuild that and governance as we know it today as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Show me a stable economy and I will show you fantasy land. It has never happened. Look at your world history. A stable economy can and does happen for a time and then a period of instability sets in, ALWAYS. This is not speculation but economics 101.

    Since your end conclusion (is again) backed up by no evidence, why should I even consider it viable?

    Well what is your plan? Great minds in history and today have yet to come up with anything that has been more successful than good old capitalism. I am dying to hear your plan?
    As I said, HUGE massive topic. But thinking in the long term and making the society function in a long term basis rather than just short burst of governance, economics and short lived joys, would be a good start and a huge part of any plan to stabilize our societies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Democratic collapse! Thats a new one.

    Who are the "others" of which you speak?
    All the other democracies I didn't mention.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Well where are the "statistics" so I can take a look at them?
    All over the place, in magazines like the economist, papers like FT, online...
    Just by following news online every day for decades you will be provided tons of statistical information, if that not enough, then you have these...

    EUROPA - Eurostat - Home page
    Economic Statistics
    The 2009 Statistical Abstract
    U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics


    Those sources are the ones I use the most. Feel free to have a look. I use tons of other sources as well..
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    You really did not address most of what I posted, but I understand the huge and multiple facets of this talk.

    As for your "plan" I am willing to bet it is more socialism, a proven failure in the long run.

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Then I suggest you start reading my posts. I would say 5% of them is real anti Americanism(criticism of attitudes and nation without reason), then an additional 15% perhaps could be conceived as anti American even though they arent. Then an additional 20% arent anti American at all, and could only be conceived as anti-Americans by people who is seeking to brand everything that isnt 100% positive about America as "anti-American". The remaning 60% doesnt really have anything to do with America in general, and most of those doesnt even mention America.
    Here's the dilio, Maximus . . .

    I actually happen to agree that the US suffers from internal rot, and it's getting worse.

    But it's the same rot which metastasized in Europe long before it was widespread here (and, by the way, it's reflected in just about everything having to do with the EU). It's only the United States supporting Europe economically, medically, culturally, and militarily which has allowed it to limp along for this long. If you doubt this, then you are in a sublime level of denial.

    We may well collapse from that rot. But if we do, the rest of of what's left of Western culture will as well, and the barbarians will rule. It will not be the first time it happened in history.

    So, be careful what you wish for.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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