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Thread: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yeah, and broad gun ownership is mostly legal here but isn't in most of the rest of the world. I think we come out ahead.

    Like I said, find me a meaningful freedom which has been lost, not a hobby. Gambling is not exactly a core, fundamental human right. (I notice you gave up on the Patriot Act. Have you even ever actually read it?)
    Yes, but then gun ownership have been allowed for a long time.. We are talking about freedoms being taken away.. Why not just admit that I am right instead of spinning around the context and avoid the context by spinning around the context, to avoid the context, so why do you spin to avoid admitting that I am right, spinning around the context?

    Its not meaningful to do what you want? Why should gambling be illegal in a free country? Its ONE example like you asked for, tons of other freedoms have been taken away from you the last decades.. Now you live in a world of surveilance, where your choice to do as you please as long as you follow the law are being taken away.. And yes, the law is constantly increasing in new things that are forbidden, not allowed.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Yes, but then gun ownership have been allowed for a long time.. We are talking about freedoms being taken away.. Why not just admit that I am right instead of spinning around the context and avoid the context by spinning around the context, to avoid the context, so why do you spin to avoid admitting that I am right, spinning around the context?
    Dude. Sometimes things are made illegal. Any given one is not evidence that we're "losing" our "freedoms," unless it, say, violates the Bill of Rights. You seem to be saying that if you can point to ANY instance where an American doesn't have absolute freedom to act, or if anything at all has been outlawed, then it's proof that Americans are less free than the Chinese. (That's the comparison you chose to make.)

    We don't live in an anarchy. We do have laws and we don't have absolute freedom. No one does.

    Show me where a significant, fundamental political freedom has been taken away, one which would point to us being "the most fascist" country in the world.


    Its not meaningful to do what you want? Why should gambling be illegal in a free country?
    Because a) it's a dangerous, self-destructive behavior and b) rife with criminal activity permeating it, wherever it happens to be. Most countries restrict it, and heavily regulate it when it's allowed.


    Its ONE example like you asked for, tons of other freedoms have been taken away from you the last decades..
    Keep listing. And, by the way, compare it the list of freedoms you'd restrict in your little schema.


    Now you live in a world of surveilance
    Piffle. That's a leftist fantasy. (And, by the way, to the extent that there ARE wiretaps being used as against foreign combatants, that it was made known the public is a product of 1) a "bickering" system of government and 2) a media "involved" in politics. Under your system, such a thing might never be known, and if it became known, there might not be anything that can be done to stop it. Such is one-party rule by elites.)


    where your choice to do as you please as long as you follow the law are being taken away.
    Are you saying that I cannot do as I please as long as I follow the law?

    Example of that?


    And yes, the law is constantly increasing in new things that are forbidden, not allowed.
    As happens under any form of government ever devised and which ever will be devised, including yours. That's why I adore gridlock and inefficiency -- fewer laws get passed that way. The fewer, the better.

    Do I claim that the system is perfect? Indeed, I do not. Nor, in fact, do I want it to be -- I'd be much more afraid of a system which claims perfection than I am of one which acknowledges that it isn't.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Never said that.. I said surveillance people who have actually become politicians.. Yet I never told you any of the complete ideas, just a tiny fractions of them.. Another part of this would be that politicians need to be dedicated people, dedicate themselves to the state and the people, and partly live in isolation. Thats how dedicated I want politicians to be, to blindly and willingly dedicate themselves to the state, much like soldiers.



    Never said that, said PARTLY elitist or MOSTLY.. Any of them is better than the current, mostly morons.



    Probably nothing like always, just blindly following the ideas that have been pushed onto you. I excuse you, you probably do not know better.
    Yes, anyone who might disagree with you is just plain ignorant, right?




    Of course, the integrity that have been pushed on you tells you this, and ignores the fact that I havent even told you 1/100th of what the total reforms into politics and economics need to be.. You just assume a bunch of things and put a label on me because I do not agree with you. And you just assume that I want to kill people.
    I didn't say that you personally wanted to kill people. I've been pretty clear in saying that what you espouse did, in fact, in the 20th century, lead to 150 million people being killed.

    But I know -- you think you can do it better and avoid all that.



    How many lives have the democratic ways of the US taken over the past 10 years? Isnt it 1 million something?
    There's more leftist fantasy, this idea out there that supposedly a million Iraqi civilians have died since the US invasion.

    Even if such a preposterous number could be substantiated, it includes:

    1) Every single person who's died from any cause whatsoever, including old age.

    2) People who were killed by the activities of insurgents (the majority of violent deaths).

    3) People killed in ordinary crime (which will still exist under your system).

    4) The insurgents themselves.

    Nothing about "democracy" is responsible for those deaths except for the ones our military killed, and the vast majority of those were combatants. The accidental civilian deaths are terrible and regrettable, but they weren't a result of "democracy." "Democracy" didn't order those deaths.

    The 150 million people killed to which I refer were those killed intentionally and directly by their own governments.


    How many has it saved? NONE.
    Yeah. Tell that to anyone saved by a medical technique or technology developed here. To someone who would have been fed into one of Saddam's wood chippers. And so on, and so on. Really, this particular statement is simply too stupid to spend much time on.



    Yet democracy is just another form of dictatorship, it certainly doesn't empower the people, any ideas that I have about politics REALLY will empower the people, not pretend to do so.
    It empowers any population which cares to take its civic responsibility seriously.



    Nor will it have a single leader like the "democratic" US have.
    You really are clueless. No, I mean, really.



    My idea will empower the people, because it will make politics local and changes to make people involved in politics, it will also party be populism and mass referendums to anything which is not short term politics.
    If you don't think that's what we have here, then you really don't understand much about it. That's the whole point of the federalist system.



    Yes, I just want to prove a point. I assume, you have assumed things all the time.. You assume most of what you are answering to, you certainly have no clear idea of my ideas and ideals.
    I have responded to that which you have said.




    I never said its new ideas, I just say I have MY OWN ideas. I am no sheep like you. I couldnt care less if its not new ideas. But the total of my ideas certainly are only my own, and new. Just because you do not understand the total of it, doesnt mean my integrity is anywhere near as robotic as yours.
    Apparently, to you, "robotic" means cherishing individual liberty as my core value. Noted.



    Like a good robot, you see some similarities, you ignore the reality and slap a brand on things. LAZY...

    You dont even know 1% of my total idea, yet you are willing our of ignorance to brand me as fascist.

    PAAAAAA The tic.
    Give me a reason to think you're not. Because everything you've said about what you'd do leans that way. You've said you'll keep freedom, but the mechanism you have said you'll put into place rather belies that.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 01-11-09 at 09:31 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Dude. Sometimes things are made illegal. Any given one is not evidence that we're "losing" our "freedoms," unless it, say, violates the Bill of Rights. You seem to be saying that if you can point to ANY instance where an American doesn't have absolute freedom to act, or if anything at all has been outlawed, then it's proof that Americans are less free than the Chinese. (That's the comparison you chose to make.)

    We don't live in an anarchy. We do have laws and we don't have absolute freedom. No one does.

    Show me where a significant, fundamental political freedom has been taken away, one which would point to us being "the most fascist" country in the world.
    .
    Well, your police are now allowed to raid and search homes without warrants.. They are allowed to surveillance you in different ways without court order.
    It doesnt need to be anarchy to allow for freedom, but mentioning that and fascism, you do have the most suppressive police force in the world now, yet tons of crime, because they dont fight crime, they fight citizens.
    What part of "permission to demonstrate" is not retarded? What part of censoring movies is not fascist? Try finding out why the movie "Idiocracy" was not sent on American movie theaters and didnt become a big blockbuster..


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Because a) it's a dangerous, self-destructive behavior and b) rife with criminal activity permeating it, wherever it happens to be. Most countries restrict it, and heavily regulate it when it's allowed.
    I could say the same thing about smoking, or drinking.. Yet gambling is allowed in many scenarios, but not online. And the American game of poker, is not allowed for Americans online. Shameful, its not dangerous, nor self destructive, its an intellectual activity unlike drinking for example. Its not rife with criminal activity as long as its kept legal, online gambling and crime is not related at all.
    Most countries somewhat restrict gambling yes, but just from keeping it getting out of hands, they dont ban it alltogether.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Do I claim that the system is perfect? Indeed, I do not. Nor, in fact, do I want it to be -- I'd be much more afraid of a system which claims perfection than I am of one which acknowledges that it isn't.
    The system is completely broken, thats why we need reform, how far we should go with reform really depends on what is reasonable. We have to make a system for the future, a system which works.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yes, anyone who might disagree with you is just plain ignorant, right?
    A person who debates like that is.. Did I ever say that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    There's more leftist fantasy, this idea out there that supposedly a million Iraqi civilians have died since the US invasion.
    I would say at LEAST 500.000 people have died as a direct result of your "democratic wars". Possibly several million have been damaged and injured for life. Getting to cast one vote amongst 40 million is probably a great comfort to them, surely, truly it must be, so long as they have hands.
    That is if there is ever peace which I doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yeah. Tell that to anyone saved by a medical technique or technology developed here. To someone who would have been fed into one of Saddam's wood chippers.
    The US invasion of Iraq currently lasting 5ish years has caused far more deaths than Saddam did over the past 30 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It empowers any population which cares to take its civic responsibility seriously.
    It doesnt really. It gives us no powers what so ever. What does one vote mean among 300 million? Or even among 50 million or EVEN 5 million? It doesnt mean ****, especially when politics is like it is and elections are just a bunch of circus performances, and politicians whom are there are either there because they have tons of money or because they are backed up with companies with tons of money.
    Hollywood or Washington? Washington or Hollywood? Politics or circus, circus politics. Its not even worthy of being labeled as politics or governance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You really are clueless. No, I mean, really.
    Am I know? Because I say you have a single leader with far too much power? Is that absurd to claim you have a single leader? Is it absurd to claim that he is far more important in US politics than the "president" is in Chinese politics. I hardly think thats absurd, and its clueless to not even consider that possibility and just brushing it off as clueless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    If you don't think that's what we have here, then you really don't understand much about it. That's the whole point of the federalist system.
    I know thats what you do not have..


    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Give me a reason to think you're not. Because everything you've said about what you'd do leans that way. You've said you'll keep freedom, but the mechanism you have said you'll put into place rather belies that.
    Never told you about the mechanisms. You simply do not understand my opinions, you are to eager to label it rather than listen to what I am actually saying..
    Which has lead to this discussion..

    But since you are the one leading the discussion here into these topics, how is this related to job losses in the US..? Ive been kind enough to answer and humor you the last posts without this getting anywhere.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Well, your police are now allowed to raid and search homes without warrants..
    No, they can't. At least not the extend they couldn't before. You should probably study 4th Amendment jurisprudence before make any sweeping generalizations here.

    They are allowed to surveillance you in different ways without court order.
    Always have been, under certain circumstances. In any case, you're obviously subscribing to the hyperbolic leftist S&M fetish about the program of listening in to conversations of known terrorists abroad.


    you do have the most suppressive police force in the world now
    That's just idiocy wrapped in a moronic bow.


    What part of "permission to demonstrate" is not retarded?
    You mean things like parade permits, park permits, etc? That's hardly anything new.


    What part of censoring movies is not fascist?
    What movies have been "censored"?

    Try finding out why the movie "Idiocracy" was not sent on American movie theaters and didnt become a big blockbuster..
    Idiocracy opened in American theaters on September 1, 2006. It went straight to DVD in almost every other country.

    It didn't become a "big blockbuster" mostly because it sucked.


    And the American game of poker, is not allowed for Americans online.
    Sure it is, and even for money in some ways.


    Shameful, its not dangerous, nor self destructive, its an intellectual activity
    If you think so, you know nothing about the psychology of gambling.


    Most countries somewhat restrict gambling yes, but just from keeping it getting out of hands, they dont ban it alltogether.
    Nor is it banned altogether here.

    Where do you get your information on the United States? I hope you're not paying for it, wherever it is.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    A person who debates like that is.. Did I ever say that?
    Considering you keep saying I'm a "robot" and "spoon-fed," yes, you did say that.


    I would say at LEAST 500.000 people have died as a direct result of your "democratic wars". Possibly several million have been damaged and injured for life.
    You can say whatever you want. It doesn't make it so.



    The US invasion of Iraq currently lasting 5ish years has caused far more deaths than Saddam did over the past 30 years.
    Prove that. Both in number and actual causality.


    It doesnt really. It gives us no powers what so ever. What does one vote mean among 300 million? Or even among 50 million or EVEN 5 million? It doesnt mean ****, especially when politics is like it is and elections are just a bunch of circus performances, and politicians whom are there are either there because they have tons of money or because they are backed up with companies with tons of money.
    Hollywood or Washington? Washington or Hollywood? Politics or circus, circus politics. Its not even worthy of being labeled as politics or governance.
    This is a lot of words just to say "Nuh-uh!!!"



    Am I know? Because I say you have a single leader with far too much power? Is that absurd to claim you have a single leader?
    We have a single head of state, like most countries. But that by no means means he's the only "leader."

    Is it absurd to claim that he is far more important in US politics than the "president" is in Chinese politics.
    He has far less power within the government, yes.

    I hardly think thats absurd, and its clueless to not even consider that possibility and just brushing it off as clueless.
    I think your entire concept of how the US works is informed by leftist fantasy sources, yes.


    I know thats what you do not have..
    A federalist system? Oh, but we do. It's true, I've met few outsiders, particularly Euros, who even scrape the surface of understanding how it works, but we do.


    Never told you about the mechanisms. You simply do not understand my opinions, you are to eager to label it rather than listen to what I am actually saying..
    Which has lead to this discussion..
    Like I said, if you want it shown that you're not a fascist, show that you're not. Fill in the rest. Simply repeating "you're wrong, you're wrong" doesn't do that.


    But since you are the one leading the discussion here into these topics, how is this related to job losses in the US..? Ive been kind enough to answer and humor you the last posts without this getting anywhere.
    Already said so, dude. You're doing nothing more than bringing up all this bad news to "prove" that "the system" is broken and doesn't work, and thus must be replaced by . . . whatever it is you've got cooked up.

    It's pretty standard propagandist/revolutionist fare.

    Anyway, this whole conversation has been rather enlightening. I guess we now know fully why you do what you do.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Already said so, dude. You're doing nothing more than bringing up all this bad news to "prove" that "the system" is broken and doesn't work, and thus must be replaced by . . . whatever it is you've got cooked up.

    It's pretty standard propagandist/revolutionist fare.

    Anyway, this whole conversation has been rather enlightening. I guess we now know fully why you do what you do.
    I am not going to comment or discuss all my opinions in this post, lets keep it relevant to the topic. I can tell you this, I did not specifically post it to prove the system is broken and that it needs to be reformed. I posted it as news, also I am of the opinions that we live in a modern world with centuries old political systems which just doesnt fit our societies, and I am certain if we dont reform then we will fall. This is not only valid for the US but also Europe, but particularly for the US since you have a stagnant political system and Europe is in full swing with reforms, lets just hope we go far enough and that the US follows and fix its broken system.

    A few important questions to you..

    What should the focus of elections be?
    Would it not be fair that ALL candidates had the same exact funding in elections, in primaries and then in presidential elections?

    Would it not be sensible for politics to start thinking more in the long term, rather than just elections and short term pleasing of voters?

    Do you think the current political model and governance in the US is highly or even moderately functional?
    Do you think the current political models in and governance in Europe is highly or even moderately functional?
    Do you believe politics need reform?

    Do you think our economic models are functioning at the best of their abilities?
    Would you mind stable and sustainable economic growth where implementation rather than invention is the most important factor?

    Do you believe in a completely free market economy with no other mix?
    Do you believe its a healthy way to govern to change the taxes all the time rather than to attempt to change the fundamentals?
    Do you find it ok that governments put the nation into debt? Do you mind when the government put you into annual deficits for more than 5 years in a row?


    I have tons of other questions, but I would like you to give HONEST answers to these ones, and then consider what I am actually saying.. I am not saying my model should be implemented or even considered or is ideal, I am just desperately in want of change, I think the current political models and economic models just sucks big time and are counter productive.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    also I am of the opinions that we live in a modern world with centuries old political systems which just doesnt fit our societies, and I am certain if we dont reform then we will fall.
    Color me underwhelmed. Despite the full swing of "reforms" in Europe, your community of nations is even weaker now than it was a decade ago. Your elites are attempting to completely thwart any sense of democratic process with this Lisbon Treaty despite the fact that ordinaye Euros have told you to stuff it. Spain is suffering because it cannot take the economic actions it has to because Germany would not benefit.

    Do you think the current political model and governance in the US is highly or even moderately functional?
    Highly functional.

    Do you think the current political models in and governance in Europe is highly or even moderately functional?
    Highly functional.

    Do you believe politics need reform?
    No.

    Do you think our economic models are functioning at the best of their abilities?
    No and they never will.

    Would you mind stable and sustainable economic growth where implementation rather than invention is the most important factor?
    Great, so we have a global culture of administrative weenies who don't innovate because they're too busy figuring out to make issuing dog licenses more efficient. No thanks.

    Do you believe in a completely free market economy with no other mix?
    No, and there are very few people who do.

    Do you believe its a healthy way to govern to change the taxes all the time rather than to attempt to change the fundamentals?
    What the heck are the fundamentals?

    Do you find it ok that governments put the nation into debt? Do you mind when the government put you into annual deficits for more than 5 years in a row?
    I find it ok. And no. Much more difficult issue than you are willing to treat it.

    I have tons of other questions,
    Who cares?

    I am not saying my model should be implemented or even considered or is ideal, I am just desperately in want of change, I think the current political models and economic models just sucks big time and are counter productive.
    As opposed to what exactly?

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    Re: Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Great, so we have a global culture of administrative weenies who don't innovate because they're too busy figuring out to make issuing dog licenses more efficient. No thanks.
    Nah, what I mean is that we do not only need to innovate, but we need to implement new technologies into every day life, at current we are greatly underperforming in this, because its "not profitable"(in the short run, for companies).


    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    What the heck are the fundamentals?
    A strong and stable economy, which do not need to adjust taxes and interest rates to work, for example. To build a society where fluctuating factors such as these arent needed because all of the fundamentals are so strong that its obsolete, for example a slowly but sustainable growing economy, rather than booms and bust and adjustments, crisis and non crisis. If we build an economy which is more about implementation than innovation(but also about innovation), then we can have an economy which grows at a steady rate, and make things such as fluctuating tax rates, fluctuating interest rates and fluctuating terms is obsolete. Fluctuating tax rates is mostly because of a broken political system, where politicians have to promise tax cuts in order to get elected,a nd where they promise the tax cuts and those tax cuts put the economy further into debt, tax cuts they actually cannot afford. Political stability is one fundamental for example, but in order to have that we need reform. Sustainable development is another fundamental, but requires reform, stable non interrupted growth is also a fundamental, but requires a new way of managing economies, and huge reform.




    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    As opposed to what exactly?
    As opposed to political, governmental and economical reform.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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