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Thread: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

  1. #381
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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    False. They are not banned from dancing. If a local ordinance bans dancing, it only does so locally. Dancers are still free to express themselves where dancing is legal.
    A ban is not a ban

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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    The minority can live under their certain morality.
    How so? Let's say it were my morality to live in a region that bans abortion? Where can said person live in the US that allows them this right?
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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    A ban is not a ban
    How are they prevented from dancing if they choose to?
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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    How are they prevented from dancing if they choose to?
    Uh because there is a ban on it.

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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Uh because there is a ban on it.
    But they can still dance.
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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    LOOK OUT THE DANCING POLICE WILL GET YOU!!!!!!

    YouTube - Dancing Police


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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    LOOK OUT THE DANCING POLICE WILL GET YOU!!!!!!

    YouTube - Dancing Police

    YouTube - Safety Dance- Men Without Hats
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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    LOL good one

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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    LOL good one
    That song has been running in my head every time I type up something on this absurd dancing ban.


    My main point has been that if the person still has a choice, ther right has not been removed. I think it gives teh minority viewpoint more freedom to allow them to do things that I personally disagree with.

    A better example than the dancing one being used isthat of prostitution.

    I still have the right to get a prostitute in this country without risk of being incarcerated for it, I just have to go to Nevada to do so.

    At the same time, I ALSO have the right to live in a prostitution-free evironment.

    If I want to live in the reverse environemnt, I simply have to move to Nevada, OR lobby to have my local rules changed.

    I can also choose to not take either of these stances (which is my personal choice at the moment).

    For me, this is more equivilant to the discussion at hand.
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  10. #390
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    Re: Joe the Plumber to become war correspondent

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They are not saying they want to control other people's lives, they are saying that they want to control their own lives. People still have control over their own lives because they can make choices. By removing their ability to live in a dance-free environment, you do in fact control them. You ask them to look askance when they encounter dancing. you force, literally FORCE them to do something that they otherwise would not do by making them live in an environment that allows dancing.

    To do something by force is to remove a person's alternatives. Banning dancing in Town X does not remove the alternatives of a person who wants to engage in the activity. They are still FREE TO DO SO, just not in Town X.

    Saying that passing legislation at the local level to enforce a code of morality is forcing one's morality upon others is erroneous because the alternative still exists, just not within that locality.

    This means that a resident of Town X could still dance the night away to their heart's content. They cannot ban residents of Town X from dancing, they can only prohibit dancing within the confines of Town X.

    In oater words, there is no force. There is no coercion. There is no "force" to prevent a behavior, only a law preventing the behavior within the town limits.

    By making it illegla to pass such legislation, you actually remove the choice of passing that legislation. They cannot go to another locale and try to enforce this legislation. The only situation where choice and freeedom are removed are those situations where the ability to choose is removed.

    If the ability to pass legislation is removed, that choice is removed.

    Teh issue is not simply being able to dance or not. If it can only be decided locally, it becomes literally imposisbel toe ban dance universally. Just as it becomes literally impossible to force everyone to live in a pro-dancing environment.

    The ONLY way to guarantee that freedom is never infringed upon is to allow all localities to dictate what freedoms they allow/disallow by themselves and not at the behest of a larger federal authority.

    Freedom is not just limitted to personal activities. It also includes teh ability to live in certain environments of one's choosing. It is about the ultimate decision of choice.

    Look at things from an objective perspective. If my true desire is to allow liberty to all, then that includes liberties which I disagree with, such as living in an environment that holds teh same morality.

    Whenever one freedom is granted, another is taken away, the opposing view's freedom to live in an environment that doesn't have that freedom.

    All freedoms entail a choice. The choice to engage, and the choice to not engage. This includes freedoms that may not seem like freedoms on the surface.

    Democracy is about allowing people's voices to be heard equally. The only way to oppose oppresion is to not give extra weight to those views which we agree with.

    True freedom only occurs if we allow people to abstain from partaking.

    This means that true freedom comes with a cost.



    For example, I don't dance. I simply do not do it. But I do not want to live in a dance-free environment either. They are two different rights.

    I have the right to dance but I am currently allowed to not partake of that right.

    I have the ability to live in a environment that allows dancing, but I am NOT allowed to NOT partake in that right.

    The choice is removed.

    Thus, freedom has been infringed upon.

    To truly support freedom, you MUST, absolutely MUST, allow those who dissent to NOT partake of that freedom.

    The only way to do this is to allow them a choice.



    Just because one doesn't agree with someone engaging or disengaging from said freedom, does not mean that they should remove that freedom of choice to engage or disengage.

    By keeping it so that these things are only decided at the most local of levels, you never remove freedom of choice.


    If one can truly show how banning a behavior in a local region legitimately removes someone's choice to engage in said behavior, you have an argument, but that cannot exist if the ordinaces are kept strictly local.

    How is the ability to dance removed by a local ordinance banning dance? If said person still has the right to dance elsewhere, do they not still have that right?

    There is no forcing anyone not to dance, there is only prevention of dancing within a a certain boundry, as determined by the people.

    One cannot punish a person who leaves the town in order to dance. That person is simply engaging in their right to dance.

    They are not subjecting the otehr residents to dancing simply because they want to. Instead they are engaging in thier own rights while not removing anyone else's.
    I see what you are saying. But what if all localities ban dancing? Then what?

    Also, federal civil rights would trump any banning of black people after dark in a town too.

    But let's say you are on probation. You get permission to go to your sister's wedding in Mexico. You smoke some pot while down there. You come back and get drug tested by your probation officer. Your probabtion gets revoked for committing an action in another locality.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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