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Thread: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

  1. #91
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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No -- fortunately, he was forced to admit his error on that one.
    When are you going to admit your error that the initial army wasn't standing? Rather the State militia had to be called up to fill the ranks. Which was the whole contention in the first place over the President and CinC. I never said he wasn't BTW. There was no error on my part. The initial army wasn't a standing army, it wasn't until later in which we made it a standing army. Thus while the President is CinC, the non-standing army which was heavily composed of State militia didn't exist till Congress called it up. So there wasn't much to CinC over till the Congress activated it. The Navy was our first standing military force, at the same time the army was made standing but still after that heavily supplemented from State militia.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #92
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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No -- fortunately, he was forced to admit his error on that one.
    So what is his point now?

    That the President is not CiC unless Congress issues a declaration of war?

    Is this poster really arguing in favor of removing civilian control of the military? Who the heck does he think commands the military in the absence of such a declaration? Or does the military cease to exist without such a declaration?

    What the heck...

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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    When are you going to admit your error that the initial army wasn't standing?
    When it becomes an error.

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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    When are you going to admit your error that the initial army wasn't standing? Rather the State militia had to be called up to fill the ranks. Which was the whole contention in the first place over the President and CinC. I never said he wasn't BTW. There was no error on my part. The initial army wasn't a standing army, it wasn't until later in which we made it a standing army. Thus while the President is CinC, the non-standing army which was heavily composed of State militia didn't exist till Congress called it up. So there wasn't much to CinC over till the Congress activated it. The Navy was our first standing military force, at the same time the army was made standing but still after that heavily supplemented from State militia.
    What does this have to do with anything related to your carping about Congress not issuing declrations of war?

  5. #95
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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    So what is his point now?

    That the President is not CiC unless Congress issues a declaration of war?

    Is this poster really arguing in favor of removing civilian control of the military? Who the heck does he think commands the military in the absence of such a declaration? Or does the military cease to exist without such a declaration?

    What the heck...
    How about instead of posting reactionary dribble, you actually read my posts? Cause all you're really doing now is pointless insult and going off of hearsay of another when everything is clearly in black and white. Take the time to read my posts and figure out what I'm saying. It was never a CinC question, it was an activation of the military question. So either read what I wrote and engage in an intellectually honest and mature manner, or just stop. You're not adding anything by this type of silly and childish insult.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    So what is his point now?
    That the President is not CiC unless Congress issues a declaration of war?
    That was the statement I originally took issue with. He has since recanted.

    He does, however, still argue that the CinC cannot take any military action against a soverign state absent a DoW, regardless of the situation.

    This would include a retalliatory strike against the Russians, should they first-strike us with their ICBMs.

    Who the heck does he think commands the military in the absence of such a declaration?
    There was no response to that question, though it was asked repeatedly.

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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    When it becomes an error.
    Well it is an error, the Continental Army was not a standing army. It was also composed heavily of State militia. It was disbanded and replaced with the US Army, which in and of itself didn't start as a standing army. It required the State militia to be called up, which required Congress. Congress has always held the power to "activate" (for lack of a better word) the military. The President is CinC of our standing army, but he does not own that army. He can't do whatever he wants with that army. Congress has to give a declaration for the President to use the military against another sovereign. It's always been that way, since the beginning. Except in the beginning Congress had more control since we didn't have a standing army, there was nothing the President could really be CinC over until the Congress called up the State militia. In many ways, that was a nicer system though unworkable in today's world.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well it is an error
    Not that you have, in any way, shown.

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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That was the statement I originally took issue with. He has since recanted.
    Not quite, I was never arguing the way you want to make believe I was arguing. I was stating that initially there was no standing army. And there wasn't, and the rhetoric of the Constitution is clearly written for a non-standing army. There was nothing to CinC over without Congress having issued a declaration and called up the State militia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    He does, however, still argue that the CinC cannot take any military action against a soverign state absent a DoW, regardless of the situation.

    This would include a retalliatory strike against the Russians, should they first-strike us with their ICBMs.
    There is no dynamic in the Constitution which provides for this. You'd have to amend the Constitution to give the President this power, I would caution you against such things. Because "retaliation" can become whatever the government wishes and if you're not careful you'll enable a system in which the President can always use the military for whatever he wants whenever he wants. And that's the power of a king. It must necessarily be restricted, there has to be opposing pieces of the government involved. It's the only way to check the power of the President. One man should never own the military.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There was no response to that question, though it was asked repeatedly.
    It was answered repeatedly.
    Last edited by Ikari; 01-06-09 at 02:13 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #100
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    Re: Dems Usher in New Era of Dull Scandals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not that you have, in any way, shown.
    There's a quote and a link in a previous post of mine. Other than that, read a book. I'm not here to teach you high school US History, you should have paid attention back then. Reality is as it is, and the time line for our military is well documented and is outlined in my posts. Continental Army (composed mostly of State militia) to US Army (initially composed mostly of State militia) to standing US Army (still at the beginning relying heavily on State militia, but building up its numbers to eventually support itself).
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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