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Thread: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

  1. #241
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    First off it is terrorists who launch the rockets. By saying "gazans" you imply the whole 1.5 million people there are terrorists, babies, women and small children included.
    That was not the intention. Of course, those actually launching these rockets, as well as committing other terror atrocities are terrorists. I did not mean to imply that all Gazans were terrorists. However, it's clear to me that Gazans made a clear and conscious decision to have a terror group govern them and openly cheer when attacks are successfully launched against Israel from their territory. Ordinary Gazans ain't demonstrating against their government for its terror activities, it ain't rebelling against the terrorists who use ambulances and other public service vehicle to transport terrorists, and it openly supports such activities. Hence, I use "gazans" since they either are comitting the terror attacks or are supportive of that terrorism.

    Problem with that?

    Secondly, the terrorists dont target schools, churches?!?!?! or other places. They CANT! The rockets are not sophisticated enough and have zero targeting ability. All the terrorists can do is point and fire and "hope" to hit something. Most rockets actually hit bare ground outside towns.
    I see, so it's even worse. They don't care where the rockets land. They fire them indiscriminately with the intention of killing civilians.

    But it's the Israeli's who are condemned for using sophisticated weaponry despite the fact that the use of such weaponry clearly is intended to avoid or limit civilian casualties.

    This is sickening.

    [quote]I agree fully. But one of the main problems is that they cant because Israel controls all vital aspects of Palestinian life.. like freedom of movement! How can you act like civilized people, when someone else control's where you can go, who you can see, where you can work and even who you can marry.....

    I don't West Bank residents attacking Israel like the Gazans do and they are in the same situation. No excuse.

    Very simple answer there. One, Israel controls the border to Jordan and that prevents any weapons being smuggled into the West Bank. Israel does not 100% control the border between Egypt and Gaza. They only control in part the official border crossings, and cant intercept what comes through the tunnels.
    So Egypt is culpable then, too.

    As for you hyperhole about improving living standards.. give me a break. Israel controls freedom of movement in the whole west bank..Israel controls who can get to work, who can marry, who can go and get medical treatment and so on.. all because of the check points.
    So, the West Bank has the same conditions yet do not attack Israel as their Gazan neighbors do...

    Saying that the Palestinians on the west bank have it "better" than those on Gaza is talking margins. Only difference is that Israel totally controls the West Bank, where as in Gaza they could/can only control what goes into Gaza not what happens in Gaza.
    Huh. You just said Israel totally controls freedom of movement in Gaza...but now you're saying Israel doesn't control what happens in Gaza. Care you elaborate on this apparent contradiction?

    You do know there are other factions other than Hamas right?
    It's Hamas, ain't it? And even if you want to play this game that Hamas is just a collection of disparate groups, Hamas is the recognized governing body in Gaza and has a duty to control what happens within their borders. They choose not to because what these other so-called separate factions are doing suits their whole objective. Hence, it's all Hamas all the time.

    Yes, the Palestinian people elected them because they were tired of the corrupt Fata faction. Happens in a FREE democratic election, that the US supported.. sucks that the result was not what you wanted. In fact it just happened in the US.. the corrupt Republican party was dealt a huge hit in the last election right.........
    The corrupt Republicans were defeated by the corrupt Democrats.

    So what if Fatah was corrupt? I tend to believe that Fatah lost because they were too moderate regarding Israel.

    In that free election the Gazans chose terrorists to govern them, explicitly an endorsement of their terror operations.

    No, Israel has the last say. No one can enter Gaza from air, sea, land without the approval of Israel. We are talking about the official border crossings. So the Palestinians do not control the border in any way.
    But Gazans can control what's happening within. They choose not to because they explicitly endorse the terrorism being committed by the freely elected representatives.

    Israel keep preventing freedom of movement to Gaza, keeps assassinating people in Gaza, keeps the West Bank under tight control, keeps building new and expanding old settlements in the West Bank, keeps Palestinians from running their own areas, but denying freedom of movement, and so on.
    And the Palestinians and their suitors in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, and elsewhere have been attacking Israel since the day after israel was formally recognized as a sovereign nation.

    Israel maintains control over these territories because they are cesspools of terrorism. Palestinians have demonstrated that they do not want to or cannot "run" their own areas because as soon as they become the governing agent in those areas those areas become launching pads for new attacks, just like Gaza.

    But even so, the Palestinians presumably want their own state. Rather than behaving like animals and using terrorism to address their grievances, they could be civilized and address them politically and diplomatically. Until they choose the latter Israel is well within its rights to defend herself.

    Israel never sticks to any deal, just like the Palestinians. Israel keeps expanding settlements, despite knowing that it is one of the main issues in the conflict. That's just one example. There is always an excuse by both sides to "break" any deal, because both sides don't have full control over what their populations do. Hamas does not control what other factions do, and Israel does not control what the settlers do. Same thing.
    No, not the same thing. A disgusting equivalency.

    The Palestinians don't ever stick to a peace deal. Never. As soon as the ink is dry they renew killing civilians. We have watched armed clashes between IDF personnel and settlers being removed from their land. Meanwhile, Palestinians contimue puring rockets into Israel.

    Do you believe that launching rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities is a reasonable response to expanding settlements? Of course not. This is not the same thing.

    Ahh now we have reached that low..... Iraq war deja vu. Where do I say I sympathize with terrorists? Terrorists are scum of the earth and it dont matter what race, religion or country they represent.
    Your sympathies are revelaed when you post gross equivalencies between the Palestinians whose only intention is to kill israeli civilians and destroy Israel and a sovereign nation defending herself from such terrorist atrocities.

    I believe the establishment of the State of Israel over the head of the natives in the area was wrong from a moral, humanitarian and legal view, but since it is here now, then it aint going away. Israel is a nation in the region and that is something everyone has to accept. What we do not have to accept is the actions of said nation.
    But you're willing to accept the indiscriminate killing of civilians as a right of protest?

    Because as I have stated time and time again, Israel continues with its acts of aggression against the Palestinian people in the West Bank.
    Acts of aggression...what a joke. Protecting herself ain't aggression as you're using it.

    Let me ask you this...are the IDF and Israeli government blockading Gaza and preventing freedom of movement to Gaza on a daily basis.. even BEFORE the rockets, and during the cease fire? Are the Israeli, preventing the democratic elected Palestinian parliament from meeting because it has put many of its members in jail... funny they can do that in another country since you believe the West Bank is under Palestinian control or something..... Are the Israelis expanding and building new settlements in the West Bank? Are they forcing out Palestinians from Jerusalem. Are the Israeli's giving total freedom of movement in the west bank to Palestinians? .. No
    Hmmm, is there not a reasonable basis for restricting freedom of movement when those in the territories have demonstrated that they will abuse the freedom to kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately?

    We can keep going on if you want, but the fact is that Israel has as much blame on the situation as the terrorists.
    Wrong. The Palestinians have not demonstrated any good faith in dealing with this diplomatically. It's not the latest violation of the ceasefire there was some unique situation. Instead, it's the usual. The Palestinians claim some grievance and then renew launching rockets. If they were acting in good faith they would not kill civilians indiscriminately, they would recognize Israel's right to exist, they would govern themselves responsibly.

    The terrorists are wrong in using rockets and suicide bombers, but Israel is just as wrong by the stuff it has done and is doing in the occupied areas for 40 years...
    In territories used to launch terror attacks and rockets for 40 years. You act as though there is no reasonable basis to exert control over these areas. As soon as territory is handed over it becomes a new terror launch point. This has been true since the early areas when territory in nothern Israel was ceded back to Lebanon.

    in fact they are fuelling the terror against them which is ironic,
    There we go, again. Blame the victim. Israel's very existence fuels the terorism. In other words, using your logic, simply remove Israel as a sovereign state and the terrorism what...goes away? LOL!

    well you can easily claim exactly the same about the Palestinians.. they are fighting an occupying force and defending their families...
    But the Israeli's are not attacking their families.

    This will go on until the terrorists lose their will or accept the right of Israel to exist.

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    - if you smoke 50 cigarettes a day, don't be astonished if you get a cancer.
    Sorry, didn't mean it as a serious philisophical thought on it. Saw a good oppertunity in WI's post to add a bit of humor into the thread, using a south park quote and thus the reason for the south park screenshot. Also why it wasn't part of my post just before it.

  3. #243
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sorry, didn't mean it as a serious philisophical thought on it. Saw a good oppertunity in WI's post to add a bit of humor into the thread, using a south park quote and thus the reason for the south park screenshot. Also why it wasn't part of my post just before it.
    aaah sorry!

    I should watch south park...

    (and I should not get too involved in this discussion )
    Last edited by bub; 01-06-09 at 01:14 PM.

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is the most tellign post in the whole thread. Why? Because none of the people railing against bhkad and others that were pro-Israel wanted to touch it. NONE of them responded to it because god forbid they have to debate someone intelligent, well informed, and well spoken of their arguments. They'd prefer to blather on with people they think of as easy pray and can stick to emotional diatribes with other than actually address someone with substance. Sad, but not surprising.
    maybe i missed something, but i think a mod just dissed a whole lot of us
    and it is prey mister smarty pants

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    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Me + Spelling = teh suck

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    Arrow Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    9/11 is justified; the US targeted their own civilians by being involved in the Middle East.
    If you backward ass retards could drill your own wells or build your own infrastructure, we would never bother with ya. But your third world piss poor societies cannot make and maintain a firstworld infrastructure, so your governments ask westerners to come and help. Western "involvement" in the middle east, is CHARITY WORK, requested and purchased by the local government.

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    If you backward ass retards could drill your own wells or build your own infrastructure, we would never bother with ya. But your third world piss poor societies cannot make and maintain a firstworld infrastructure, so your governments ask westerners to come and help. Western "involvement" in the middle east, is CHARITY WORK, requested and purchased by the local government.

    How is that a valid response to a quote which was sarcastic?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    How is that a valid response to a quote which was sarcastic?
    It wasn't sarcastic. Read more of that poster's "contributions" and you will understand that he really was trying to morally equivocate between the two.

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    It wasn't sarcastic. Read more of that poster's "contributions" and you will understand that he really was trying to morally equivocate between the two.
    He was using another poster's absurd logic on a different situation. Welcome to two days ago.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    He was using another poster's absurd logic on a different situation.
    Incorrect. He was attempting the moral equivocation and if you don't know it, then as I instructed, read more of that poster's "contributions".

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