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Thread: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

  1. #221
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Moderate as in:




    I guess you could characterize him as moderate if you consider the use of rifles more moderate then firing rockets into schools or using cemeteries to luanch said rockets.
    your link is broken

  2. #222
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    You wouldn't protect your family unless you had a rock solid guarantee of success? Your logic is bullcrap.
    I would protect them, yes. But I'd have some sort of conception in my mind of what "protecting them" entails. No one seems to have any idea of that in Israel. If Israel simply destroys the rockets and leaves Gaza with Hamas still in power, do you honestly believe that the border will be any more peaceful a year from now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
    The current Israeli Defense Minister - Ehud Barak - is a career soldier. No one criticised 2006 Lebanon more than he did. Do you think he is actually stupid enough to reprise those mistakes?
    Possibly. He seems to already be reprising a couple of them: 1) Not having clear objectives for the invasion from the outset, 2) Leaving the terrorist group in power and therefore able to declare victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
    Do you think the Gaza and Lebanon theaters have anything in common?
    They have some things in common, in that a terror group is able to carry out cross-border attacks and Israel has chosen to invade them but leave the terror group in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah
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  3. #223
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Of course. But that is irrelevant to whether or not an invasion (and possible occupation) is prudent.
    At the same time, let's not pretend that Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza either.
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    At the same time, let's not pretend that Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza either.
    Uhh who was pretending that they were? Certainly not me.
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  5. #225
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by GarzaUK View Post
    I guess thats the difference between you and me, I have empathy for the common man.
    Actually, you have imagined empathy for illusory phantoms of your own construction. It is a common failing, so don't be too hard on yourself. You've simply been taught to imagine people exactly like you and your mates and overlay those models with Palestinian features and names. It's a very old propaganda technique.

    Common men don't launch rockets into residential neighborhoods on a lark.

    Common men don't look at their adolescent son and think "I can make a bomb out of this."

    Common men are more concerned with building a life for themselves and their community more than they are concerned with denying these things to the neighbors.

    Common men are extraordinary.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 01-06-09 at 07:31 AM.

  6. #226
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Sorry, but there's no reasonable rational for Gazans to be launching rockets at Israeli schools, churches, or day care centers let alone firing them indiscriminately to cause as much civilian death and terror as possible.
    First off it is terrorists who launch the rockets. By saying "gazans" you imply the whole 1.5 million people there are terrorists, babies, women and small children included.

    Secondly, the terrorists dont target schools, churches?!?!?! or other places. They CANT! The rockets are not sophisticated enough and have zero targeting ability. All the terrorists can do is point and fire and "hope" to hit something. Most rockets actually hit bare ground outside towns.

    Israeli is a sovereign nation. The Gazans could start acting like a civilized people and govern themselves rather than being terrorists.
    I agree fully. But one of the main problems is that they cant because Israel controls all vital aspects of Palestinian life.. like freedom of movement! How can you act like civilized people, when someone else control's where you can go, who you can see, where you can work and even who you can marry.....

    I wonder why we don't see this same activity in the West Bank? I mean, we see the markets open, improving standards of living, etc. Meanwhile, the Gazans launch rockets at kids.
    Very simple answer there. One, Israel controls the border to Jordan and that prevents any weapons being smuggled into the West Bank. Israel does not 100% control the border between Egypt and Gaza. They only control in part the official border crossings, and cant intercept what comes through the tunnels.

    As for you hyperhole about improving living standards.. give me a break. Israel controls freedom of movement in the whole west bank..Israel controls who can get to work, who can marry, who can go and get medical treatment and so on.. all because of the check points. Saying that the Palestinians on the west bank have it "better" than those on Gaza is talking margins. Only difference is that Israel totally controls the West Bank, where as in Gaza they could/can only control what goes into Gaza not what happens in Gaza.

    And why you make such a wager?
    You do know there are other factions other than Hamas right?

    Even if that were the case...Hamas is a popularly elected government, no?
    Yes, the Palestinian people elected them because they were tired of the corrupt Fata faction. Happens in a FREE democratic election, that the US supported.. sucks that the result was not what you wanted. In fact it just happened in the US.. the corrupt Republican party was dealt a huge hit in the last election right.........

    Do they not have a responsibility to control their borders?That they do not, and willfully do not at that, they have them demonstrated that they are supportive of such rocket attacks. I'm sure they don't mind given that such attacks fit their agenda very nicely.
    No, Israel has the last say. No one can enter Gaza from air, sea, land without the approval of Israel. We are talking about the official border crossings. So the Palestinians do not control the border in any way.

    Hmmm, a ceasefire is signed. Gazans continue lobbing rockets into Israel. Hamas does nothing. Rockets continue being fired.
    Israel keep preventing freedom of movement to Gaza, keeps assassinating people in Gaza, keeps the West Bank under tight control, keeps building new and expanding old settlements in the West Bank, keeps Palestinians from running their own areas, but denying freedom of movement, and so on.

    Yeah, I see Israel, you know, not sticking to a ceasefire agreement.
    Israel never sticks to any deal, just like the Palestinians. Israel keeps expanding settlements, despite knowing that it is one of the main issues in the conflict. That's just one example. There is always an excuse by both sides to "break" any deal, because both sides don't have full control over what their populations do. Hamas does not control what other factions do, and Israel does not control what the settlers do. Same thing.

    Why do you sympathize with the terrorists?
    Ahh now we have reached that low..... Iraq war deja vu. Where do I say I sympathize with terrorists? Terrorists are scum of the earth and it dont matter what race, religion or country they represent.

    Do you believe that Israel should not exist?
    I believe the establishment of the State of Israel over the head of the natives in the area was wrong from a moral, humanitarian and legal view, but since it is here now, then it aint going away. Israel is a nation in the region and that is something everyone has to accept. What we do not have to accept is the actions of said nation.

    Well, Gazans have chosen who they are uniting with...Hamas. Hamas was elected to govern. Instead, it not only engages in lobbing rockets int Israel but tolerates it within their jurisdiction.
    Because as I have stated time and time again, Israel continues with its acts of aggression against the Palestinian people in the West Bank.

    Are the Gazans not burrowing tunnels beneath the border to carry out terror attacks?
    Burrowing into Israel? Most likely

    Burrowing into Egypt? No, not at all. Is there weapons smuggled? Sure, but most of the material coming in is food, medicine and materials, because Israel has been blockading the Gaza Strip for a long time.

    Are the Gazans not launching rockets into Israel on a near daily basis?
    Terrorists are.

    Let me ask you this...are the IDF and Israeli government blockading Gaza and preventing freedom of movement to Gaza on a daily basis.. even BEFORE the rockets, and during the cease fire? Are the Israeli, preventing the democratic elected Palestinian parliament from meeting because it has put many of its members in jail... funny they can do that in another country since you believe the West Bank is under Palestinian control or something..... Are the Israelis expanding and building new settlements in the West Bank? Are they forcing out Palestinians from Jerusalem. Are the Israeli's giving total freedom of movement in the west bank to Palestinians? .. No

    We can keep going on if you want, but the fact is that Israel has as much blame on the situation as the terrorists. The terrorists are wrong in using rockets and suicide bombers, but Israel is just as wrong by the stuff it has done and is doing in the occupied areas for 40 years... in fact they are fuelling the terror against them which is ironic, and sad since they seem to not to be able to see that. When people like you claim that Israel are defending themselves.. well you can easily claim exactly the same about the Palestinians.. they are fighting an occupying force and defending their families...

    This will go on and on, because of the pigheaded attitudes of both sides.. period.
    PeteEU

  7. #227
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I agree. I very much hope that civilian casualties will be minimized. I remain concerned about Hamas' human shielding on account of placing its facilities, weapons, and personnel in the midst of civilians. It would not surprise me if Hamas tries to precipitate combat in civilian areas with the hope of creating large numbers of civilian casualties. Of course, Hamas would bear complete responsibility for civilian casualties that result from its human shielding.
    This is the most tellign post in the whole thread. Why? Because none of the people railing against bhkad and others that were pro-Israel wanted to touch it. NONE of them responded to it because god forbid they have to debate someone intelligent, well informed, and well spoken of their arguments. They'd prefer to blather on with people they think of as easy pray and can stick to emotional diatribes with other than actually address someone with substance. Sad, but not surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    The civilians did not attack Israel.
    Please, name me any modern war (conducted after the point where two sides met on some random hill and ran at each other with swords or bayonets) that did not cause civilians to be killed. Guess what, if YOUR COUNTRY (espicially in a "democratically elected one" like so many in this thread keep pointing out) attacks ANOTHER country then its likely going to cause some of your civilians to die when they counter attack. This is doubly so when YOUR COUNTRY is using civilian areas to hide. Part of being in a democracy is accepting the responsability of what your government and its people does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I don't want Hamas in power but i think they should be removed using democracy - the same way they entered.
    Riiight. Please, name me another non-3rd world state that if another state, democracy or not, launched missile after missile at it for a month would deem it appropriate action to JUST democratically deter the country doing it. You wouldn't.

    Turn it around, lets say...hell, CANADA had the military power to defeat the United States and Republicans decided we needed to bomb canada and proceeded to do it for weeks on end. Would you honestly be sitting here saying that Canada should just deal with it and do nothing but seek a "democratic" means of solving the problem and that they shouldn't excersie their right to defend themselves?

    This is nothing more than stereotypical Israeli hate by you. Surprise surprise. You try to remain "neutral" and condemn both sides, but you do it in words alone and not action in regard to Hamas and Palestine. The only time you speak critically of them is when you say something along the lines of "both". Beyond that, its non-stop attacking of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Unless BBC and the Guardian is now Arab propaganda, people were in the Mosque praying evening prayers.
    Remember, Muslims have to pray 5 times. One of them is late in the evening.

    Six children among 12 killed in mosque blast | World news | The Observer

    Scenes of carnage as Israeli shells strike crowd of civilians who were leaving evening prayers
    Wow. What a thought. Muslims pray 5 times, going lllllllate into the night and eeeeeeearly in the morning as potential times. So why not hide military objects in these places so that we can be sure that no matter when its hit there's almost a certainty of civilians being killed. Then, when it happens, it won't be our fault for planning this out and putting stuff there for that specific reason but we'll get the israel haters going "See! See! ISRAEL is killing civilians! its their fault!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ammro View Post
    Yes. US and Britain are behind most sufferings, miseries, and poverty in our planet. Look for their past and current practices.

    Who hunted and shipped Africans and made them slaves in America. Who used the first Atomic bomb on earth? Who invaded Vietnam? ..etc.

    British is the country of the most black history. They ruled Africa, India, many Middle East countries by force and killed the people who defended them.

    Who created the rotten racial segregation in South African and treated black people as dogs. Please read the western history. Why not do we have to think that history is repeating itself through allegation of democracy, freedom, and terrorism fight.

    This is history of the west culture and you can not deny it. The current scene is a reflection of that history.
    Oh give me a break. Africans engaged in the slave trade with their own people before the U.S. was even created. The arab slave trade continued on for even longer years. Attrocities by arabs, africans, and asians are far from non-existant. Every country of almost any note has had its share of black marks. Not surprisingly, many of these countries that have the most black marks have also been the ones that have done the most for civilization as well.

    Your apparent ignorance or purpuseful blindness towards the realistic way in which the world works, and the fact that "The West" is not simply some great devil while the rest of the world is a utopia is disgustingly sad.

  8. #228
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    IMO, Hamas is the cancer that is keeping Palestinian civilians and Israel from reaching a peaceful solution. Their removal is the only thing that can ever bring about a resolution to this problem. Some Palestinians are going to have to die in this, due to the tactics of Hamas using them and their structures as shields.
    When there is a cancer, you have to "fight" it. You can't reason with cancer, you can't wish it away. Cancer doesn't play by the rules, so neither can you. And you can't listen to what anybody else tells you. You have to be willing to give up everything, because the cancer will take everything. When you have cancer you fight, because it doesn't matter if you beat it or not. You refuse to let that fat little lump make you feel powerless!


  9. #229
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    When there is a cancer, you have to "fight" it. You can't reason with cancer, you can't wish it away. Cancer doesn't play by the rules, so neither can you. And you can't listen to what anybody else tells you. You have to be willing to give up everything, because the cancer will take everything. When you have cancer you fight, because it doesn't matter if you beat it or not. You refuse to let that fat little lump make you feel powerless!

    - if you smoke 50 cigarettes a day, don't be astonished if you get a cancer. Israel has helped the Hamas to get the power in Gaza (according to Israeli historian Zeev Sternell) and then makes it gain support by maintaining a blockade around Gaza, annexing land with the security fence and paying people to go live in illegal colonies in West bank

    - you don't fight a cancer with analgesics or placebos. Israel has already tried to remove the Hamas by invading Gaza, and it has not worked. It has also invaded Lebanon to get rid of Hezbollah, and it hasn't worked neither.

    - you can't win against a cancer if you don't stop smoking. The Palestinians (also the Hamas) ask for the two-state solution with the 1967 borders (and not the total destruction of Israel, as Ephraim Halevy, former boss of the Mossad says) and proposed a ceasefire (contrary to what certain posters say, most of the Palestinians do not want the destruction of Israel, 76% of them want the two state solution), which has been refused by Israel. If Israel wanted to stop the violence, it should destroy all its illegal colonies, where half a million of settlers live, and the right wing ones do not seem ready to accept that.

  10. #230
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    Re: Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Why do you sympathize with the terrorists?

    Do you believe that Israel should not exist?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1057866183

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