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Thread: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

  1. #71
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No it is not. Comparing discrimination by race to smoking is nothing but a red herring.
    I was only comparing the legal principle involved. Another poster said that the business could admit anyone they pleased. Asking if that means can they limit access based on race, ethnicity, etc. is a valid question.

    How long would they be in business if this were the case? With or without government intervention?
    Don't know? I have seen some pretty dirty places stay in business for a long time.

    The government disagrees...
    It is hardly unanimous.

    A federal court has taken a look at the Environmental Protection Agency's science on secondhand smoke and called it junk
    So, the judges are scientists now? The body of scientific evidence relating to the dangers of second hand smoke continues to grow.

    And many do. We should not punish everyone for the actions of others.
    But you are willing to tolerate the production of poison into the air.

    I am so sick of hearing "It is for the children!" Every time someone wants to pass something into law that takes away just one more of our libertys it's the same mantra.
    Second-hand smoke is a known cause of many childhood health problems. Children have the right to live in a home that is smoke-free.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    ACS :: Secondhand Smoke

    Secondhand Smoke: Questions and Answers - National Cancer Institute

    Does exposure to secondhand smoke cause cancer?
    Yes. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the U.S. National Toxicology Program (NTP), the U.S. Surgeon General, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) have classified secondhand smoke as a known human carcinogen (cancer-causing agent) (1, 3, 5).
    WHO | 10 facts about tobacco and second-hand smoke

    Second-hand tobacco smoke is dangerous to health. It causes cancer, heart disease and many other serious diseases in adults. Almost half of the world's children breathe air polluted by tobacco smoke, which worsens their asthma conditions and causes dangerous diseases. At least 200 000 workers die every year due to exposure to second-hand smoke at work.
    MedlinePlus: Secondhand Smoke

    There is no safe amount of secondhand smoke. Children, pregnant women, older people and people with heart or breathing problems should be especially careful.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I was only comparing the legal principle involved. Another poster said that the business could admit anyone they pleased. Asking if that means can they limit access based on race, ethnicity, etc. is a valid question.
    Hmmm... OK I agree it most definitely is valid. But it is also guaranteed by the 14th amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Don't know? I have seen some pretty dirty places stay in business for a long time.
    I agree and people can choose for themselves to go to the establishment or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    It is hardly unanimous.
    Simple capitalist thinking, and it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    So, the judges are scientists now? The body of scientific evidence relating to the dangers of second hand smoke continues to grow.
    No. But like you or I they can evaluate the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    But you are willing to tolerate the production of poison into the air.
    That would depend. You willing to give up your car for the sake of clean air?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Second-hand smoke is a known cause of many childhood health problems. Children have the right to live in a home that is smoke-free.
    No it does not directly cause anything, but it can contribute to pre-existing conditions.

    Children have the right to be in a world that is pollution free. That ain't going to happen until we give up factory's, cars, energy etc.

  4. #74
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Hmmm... OK I agree it most definitely is valid. But it is also guaranteed by the 14th amendment.

    I agree and people can choose for themselves to go to the establishment or not.
    And the government has a public interest to make establishments as safe as possible.

    Simple capitalist thinking, and it works.
    Surely even you don't think 100% capitalism is effective. That was done away with 200 years ago.

    No. But like you or I they can evaluate the evidence.
    I think medical organizations can evaulate that evidence a little better than unelected judges can.

    That would depend. You willing to give up your car for the sake of clean air?
    You are talking to a cycle commuter. I strongly favor much higher standards on automotive emmissions.

    No it does not directly cause anything, but it can contribute to pre-existing conditions.
    Even if that first statement were true, and it isn't according to many researchers, the fact that it could exaccerbate pre-existing conditions is reason enough for concern.

    Children have the right to be in a world that is pollution free. That ain't going to happen until we give up factory's, cars, energy etc.
    Here, I am talking about a home free of a known cancer-causing poison.
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    [QUOTE=ludahai;1057869607]WHO | 10 facts about tobacco and second-hand smoke

    World health caught lying again...

    PASSIVE SMOKING DOESN'T CAUSE CANCER - OFFICIAL

    FORCES - EVIDENCE - PASSIVE SMOKING DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER - OFFICIAL

    Based on the lack of scientific evidence, there is no conclusive data which says secondhand smoke causes cancer.

    Does Secondhand Smoke Really Cause Cancer?

    Smoking Does Not Cause Lung Cancer

    Smoking does not cause lung cancer, WHO 1999 statistics. Editorial from the Journal of Theoretics

  6. #76
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    And the government has a public interest to make establishments as safe as possible.
    When it starts infringing on our rights they have overstepped and are at that point only taking liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Surely even you don't think 100% capitalism is effective. That was done away with 200 years ago.
    Of course not. But the US government has gone berserk.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I think medical organizations can evaulate that evidence a little better than unelected judges can.
    So you are ignoring the bulk of the data I posted, and saying you are smart enough to evaluate the evidence but judges are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You are talking to a cycle commuter. I strongly favor much higher standards on automotive emmissions.
    Screw you hippy!

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Even if that first statement were true, and it isn't according to many researchers, the fact that it could exaccerbate pre-existing conditions is reason enough for concern.
    Yes there is reason for concern, but not restricting it by law.

    Typical government over reaction much like guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Here, I am talking about a home free of a known cancer-causing poison.
    Oh you mean like Radon?

  7. #77
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    [QUOTE=Blackdog;1057869618]
    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    WHO | 10 facts about tobacco and second-hand smoke

    World health caught lying again...

    PASSIVE SMOKING DOESN'T CAUSE CANCER - OFFICIAL

    FORCES - EVIDENCE - PASSIVE SMOKING DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER - OFFICIAL
    SPECTULATION from MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO???

    Based on the lack of scientific evidence, there is no conclusive data which says secondhand smoke causes cancer.

    Does Secondhand Smoke Really Cause Cancer?
    And just who the heck is Ty Magnum?

    An EDITORIAL from nearly TEN YEARS ago?

    Is that the best you can do?
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  8. #78
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    When it starts infringing on our rights they have overstepped and are at that point only taking liberty.
    SO, people don't have the right to be free from poisonous tobacco smoke?

    Of course not. But the US government has gone berserk.
    But this isn't from the US government, these initiatives in the US are all from state and local governments

    So you are ignoring the bulk of the data I posted, and saying you are smart enough to evaluate the evidence but judges are not?
    I am saying that I trust medical scientists more than you, myself, or judges to evaulate it. I have a good friend at a local research hospital who is a cancer researcher. The stuff he tells me....

    Screw you hippy!
    Wow. First time I have ever been called a hippy.

    Yes there is reason for concern, but not restricting it by law.
    Sorry, we disagree here. There is compelling reason to restrict tobacco short of banning it.

    Typical government over reaction much like guns.
    Guns and tobacco smoke are not the same. Guns have a legitimate, useful purpose. Cigarettes are poison.

    Oh you mean like Radon?
    Aren't there restrictions regarding that now that we know how much harm it can cause? Like leaded gasoline?
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  9. #79
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    [QUOTE=ludahai;1057869621]
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post

    SPECTULATION from MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO???



    And just who the heck is Ty Magnum?



    An EDITORIAL from nearly TEN YEARS ago?

    Is that the best you can do?

    You do realize it takes years to do these studies right? As far as I know not any of them are recent.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-03-09 at 01:51 AM.

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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    SO, people don't have the right to be free from poisonous tobacco smoke?
    Yes, thats what your feet are for.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    But this isn't from the US government, these initiatives in the US are all from state and local governments
    I meant all government in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I am saying that I trust medical scientists more than you, myself, or judges to evaulate it. I have a good friend at a local research hospital who is a cancer researcher. The stuff he tells me....
    And plenty of scientists and doctors will disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Wow. First time I have ever been called a hippy.
    Thought you would enjoy that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Sorry, we disagree here. There is compelling reason to restrict tobacco short of banning it.
    Then we will agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Guns and tobacco smoke are not the same. Guns have a legitimate, useful purpose. Cigarettes are poison.
    Guns need to have a legitimate or useful purpose? (Don't answer that. Going to bed.)

    Cigarettes are poison in your opinion. Many disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Aren't there restrictions regarding that now that we know how much harm it can cause? Like leaded gasoline?
    Ugh. That is a whole debate in itself.

    I am going to bed.

    We can just agree to disagree.

    Have a good night and God bless.

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