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Thread: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

  1. #61
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    That is a different matter if it is actually owned by the public.
    How many parks are NOT owned by the public?

    The right to private property.
    The right to private property is NOT absolute - not even in the US and definately not in the country where I live.
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You are going to use a BLOG entry as evidence to the social teachings of the Catholic Church to defend the speading of POISON?
    What? I was trying to show you what the social teaching of the Catholic church was. Do you deny that Rerum Novarum, Quadragesimo Anno are the basis of Catholic social teaching and that Distributism was built on these?

    I was showing you the whole blog, it is very interesting.

    The ChesterBelloc Mandate: Rerum Novarum

    What stands out and excels in us, what makes man man and distinguishes him generically from the brute, is the mind and reason. And owing to the fact that this animal alone has reason, it is necessary that man have goods not only to be used, which is common to all living things, but also to be possessed by stable and perpetual right; and this applies not merely to those goods which are consumed by use, but to those also which endure after being used.

    Leo XIII

    The ChesterBelloc Mandate: <em>Quadragesimo Anno</em>


    The right of property is distinct from its use.[30] That justice called commutative commands sacred respect for the division of possessions and forbids invasion of others' rights through the exceeding of the limits of one's own property; but the duty of owners to use their property only in a right way does not come under this type of justice, but under other virtues, obligations of which "cannot be enforced by legal action."[31] Therefore, they are in error who assert that ownership and its right use are limited by the same boundaries; and it is much farther still from the truth to hold that a right to property is destroyed or lost by reason of abuse or non-use.
    Pius XI

    You want private property? Don't make it public access, and don't have children.
    There is no reason why public access should override the rights of private property is this instance as access is only given to
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #63
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    How many parks are NOT owned by the public?
    I don't see your point. I'm not saying that public property can't have these bans.


    The right to private property is NOT absolute - not even in the US and definately not in the country where I live.
    Of course it isn't absolute but it is a good and necessary thing and your ban is way beyond any reasonable limits on private property and goes bascially to destroy it. Remember this action is not in isolation and can be used as a jumping point to over abuses. If people know it is a smoking area then they have the choice not to go, it is that simple, anything else is an invasion of private property.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    The article in the OP is compelling, but, for me, not compelling enough to rationalize outright criminilization. Information about cigarettes and tobacco is freely available in this country, if sometimes difficult to remove from partisan agendas. If you enter another's property, whether that is a business or a home, it is typically apparent if it is a place where one can smoke. Considering this, I can't reconcile criminilization of tobacco use. For the most part, it can only harm you if you knowingly choose to use it or put yourself adjacent to it, even assuming the power of second-hand smoke.

    I will say this: Businesses should be required to make apparent to all their patrons, through clear, concise, obvious terms, if smoking is allowed on their premises; such as a conspicuous sign on the entrance. This is not an unreasonable request, and many businesses already meet it. Assuming this, any citizen would have effectively perfect information, to the degree that it is feasible, on where they may possibly be exposed to second-hand smoke.

    P.S.: It's only fair that you guys know that I am light smoker.

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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    But the legal principle is the same.
    No it is not. Comparing discrimination by race to smoking is nothing but a red herring.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Don't make it public access. I suppose that means the private business owner can violate public health laws as well - because the diner can simply leave.
    How long would they be in business if this were the case? With or without government intervention?

    The market would correct itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    And keeping the workplace and place of public access free of a known toxin is NOT an example of the state overreaching its bounds.
    The government disagrees...

    A federal court has taken a look at the Environmental Protection Agency's science on secondhand smoke and called it junk

    COURT RULES AGAINST EPA ON SECONDHAND SMOKE

    I noticed you ignored my other post...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057869526-post41.html


    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Sadly, many smokers wouldnt know the phrase "personal responsibility" if it smacked them flat on the forehead.
    And many do. We should not punish everyone for the actions of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Children have the right to grow up in a smoke-free environment.
    I am so sick of hearing "It is for the children!" Every time someone wants to pass something into law that takes away just one more of our libertys it's the same mantra.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 01-03-09 at 12:51 AM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    There is no reason why public access should override the rights of private property is this instance as access is only given to
    Acess is only given to whom? Sorry, courts have regularly ruled against this notion. And yes, the issue of race IS relevant here because it was the issue of race that opened up the courts to this issue in the 1960s, linking it to the rights of the government under the interstate commerce clause. Governments DO have legitimate interests. No property is ABSOLUTELY private. You can not do anything you want on your property, even if it is NOT public access.
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I don't see your point. I'm not saying that public property can't have these bans.
    OK, at least on this point, we are in agreement


    Of course it isn't absolute but it is a good and necessary thing and your ban is way beyond any reasonable limits on private property and goes bascially to destroy it. Remember this action is not in isolation and can be used as a jumping point to over abuses. If people know it is a smoking area then they have the choice not to go, it is that simple, anything else is an invasion of private property.
    I disagree. Placing limits in poison in a place of public access and accommodation IS a reasonable limit. I am frankly SICK AND TIRED of the tyranny of the smokers of the world, who make up a minority. Frankly, we are striking back. If you don't like it, go to your home, have no children, and smoke there. Otherwise, watch it. We are coming. No more will we tolerate your POISON!
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Acess is only given to whom? Sorry, courts have regularly ruled against this notion. And yes, the issue of race IS relevant here because it was the issue of race that opened up the courts to this issue in the 1960s, linking it to the rights of the government under the interstate commerce clause. Governments DO have legitimate interests. No property is ABSOLUTELY private. You can not do anything you want on your property, even if it is NOT public access.
    No one is saying this. What we are saying is that there is still private property and this ban goes well beyond the reasonable limitations to private property and basically destroys it because it stops you allowing smoking on your property when you make those given access to it fully aware of this fact.

    Btw quoting judicial activism is not a good case for the constitutionality of the argument.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Just waiting for those who defend the forcing of poison on others to show up in this thread.
    You must realize that these men are not too bright, poorly educated, poorly reared; but they do not deliberately force any poison .....They simply knew no better.... And a short 50 years ago, most Americans were like this....

    Also, don't we have legs ???
    Its a very imperfect world in which we live...
    Maybe today's people are smarter (or think they are smarter), or, which is closer to the truth, they will do that they think is the "in" thing, just like their parents and grandparents did..
    Neither are good, a Nazi or someone who blows smoke.
    So, my"defense" of the smoker is that they are "sheeple" and that they cannot think as well as I... ..And I did, 40 years ago, smoke,about 2 or 3 packs.., and like Bill Clinton, I never inhaled..

  10. #70
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    Re: Smoking ban leads to major drop in heart attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I disagree. Placing limits in poison in a place of public access and accommodation IS a reasonable limit. I am frankly SICK AND TIRED of the tyranny of the smokers of the world, who make up a minority. Frankly, we are striking back. If you don't like it, go to your home, have no children, and smoke there. Otherwise, watch it. We are coming. No more will we tolerate your POISON!
    You are completely unreasonable and destroying private property, you are actually trying to say people can't choose to go into a place they know smoking will take place. If you can't put up with people allowing smoking on thier private property then that is your problem, don't use the tyranny of the state to try and force this collectivism on them and destroy private property.

    To quote PiusXI:

    "no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist"
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-03-09 at 01:02 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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