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Thread: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

  1. #71
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    We are talking about an 18th century document. You seem to be admitting my point.

    In formal English that is what a religious establishment meant, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this. They could have easily used a different term but they didn't because they knew its usage.

    Calling any religious organisation an establishment is lax use of English, even today.
    In formal English a religious establishment is an established church. That is why they are listed seperately, partiuclarly before quite recently. You are being lax with the English language.
    How can I be "admitting your point" when the term you insist on referring to was never used? And the "definition" that you keep referring to was AN EXAMPLE of a definition?

    Calling ANY organization an establishment in no way contradicts the definition of the term, nor is it "lax."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It was you who was trying to make an argument out of it. I showed you were wrong or that your evidence only showed when the word was first used.
    No, you claimed that my definition was a "recent bastardization" when it was in fact the definition when the word was first used.

    My definition PREDATED your term, which is why I took issue with your allegation of "bastardization." Not that your term is relevant at all because its not cited as a definition for the word, only an example of an establishment.

    And "established church" is utterly absent from the constitution.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:57 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  2. #72
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    How can I be "admitting your point" when the term you insist on referring to was never used? And the "definition" that you keep referring to was AN EXAMPLE of a definition?

    Calling ANY organization an establishment in no way contradicts the definition of the term, nor is it "lax."
    You just contradicted yourself in the same post. Establishment means an established church in religious terms, hence its seperate definition, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this.

    Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion

    To be honest I think I have amply proved my point and unless you have anything to really offer rather than the same tired old whining then I don't see much point in continuing.

    No, you claimed that my definition was a "recent bastardization" when it was in fact the definition when the word was first used.
    Where is your proof for this?
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-02-09 at 01:58 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #73
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You just contradicted yourself in the same post. Establishment means an established church in religious terms, hence its seperate definition, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this.
    No, no it doesn't and you haven't proven this nor cited a single DEFINITION that agrees with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    To be honest I think I have amply proved my point
    I'm sure you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    and unless you have anything to really offer rather than the same tired old whining then I don't see much point in continuing.
    If you're done just say it, you don't have to insult me just because you don't understand how definitions work.

    The fact remains that you started and ended this debate with insults, and justified them by claiming they were in response to a post that HAD NOT BEEN MADE YET.

    And you claimed that my definition was a "recent bastardization" and you claimed that the example "established church" is a definition rather than an example. You don't understand basic definitions, how to read them, or basic simple words like "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

    But if thats all you have to say... and you feel that you have "amply proved" the failed points that you keep ignoring, by all means, pretend like you didn't commit two foolish chronological mistakes.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 02:03 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  4. #74
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Not that your term is relevant at all because its not cited as a definition for the word, only an example of an establishment.
    Actually it was treated the same as your definition. You are being untruthful here.

    And "established church" is utterly absent from the constitution.
    You are being disingenuousl now.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    No, no it doesn't and you haven't proven this nor cited a single DEFINITION that agrees with you.
    Yes I have, your own defintion did. Not to mention the other definitions and the article.
    If you're done just say it, you don't have to insult me
    I call an apple and apple. You don't understand English and you are being disingenuous to score cheap points. Why should I debate with those who are disingenuous?

    I think we are done.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Actually it was treated the same as your definition. You are being untruthful here.
    No, you can't read definitions. I am not lying when I say that a NUMBER and a LETTER mean DEFINITION or EXAMPLE when reading one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You are being disingenuousl now.
    Please show me the word "church" in the 1st amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yes I have, your own defintion did. Not to mention the other definitions and the article.
    I call an apple and apple. You don't understand English and you are being disingenuous to score cheap points. Why should I debate with those who are disingenuous?

    I think we are done.
    Oh wow, since you can't read definitions you question their credibility?

    I don't think you know what disingenuous means. I'd ask you to define it... but we all know how good you are w/ definitions.

    If you're done then if you aren't then show me the word "church" in the 1st amendment.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 02:07 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  7. #77
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    by all means, pretend like you didn't commit two foolish chronological mistakes.
    Wtf are you talking about?

    Your online dictionary said the word establishment was first used in the 15th century, it did not say your definition was. Like the way the term gay was first used then but the usage to mean homosexual was not. Again you lie.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Wtf are you talking about?
    You justified rude comments with my post that said "ad-hominem" when said post came AFTER said insults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Your online dictionary said the word establishment was first used in the 15th century, it did not say your definition was. Like the way the term gay was first used then but the usage to mean homosexual was not. Again you lie.
    Obviously you do not understand what the "date" means in a definition either, else you would not call my explanation of it a lie.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 02:09 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #79
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    No, you can't read definitions. I am not lying when I say that a NUMBER and a LETTER mean DEFINITION or EXAMPLE when reading one.
    Your definition was the same.

    1: something established: as a: a settled arrangement ; especially : a code of laws b: established church c: a permanent civil or military organization d: a place of business or residence with its furnishings and staff e: a public or private institution


    Please show me the word "church" in the 1st amendment.
    It says establishment, in religious as your dictionary shows this means a state church. You are disingenuous because you ignore this.


    Oh wow, since you can't read definitions you question their credibility?

    I don't think you know what disingenuous means. I'd ask you to define it... but we all know how good you are w/ definitions.

    If you're done then if you aren't then show me the word "church" in the 1st amendment.
    Why do you have to be untruthful? Does it make you feel smart?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    You justified rude comments with my post that said "ad-hominem" when said post came AFTER said insults.
    I don't think I did.

    Obviously you do not understand what the "date" means in a definition either, else you would not call my explanation of it a lie.
    So you are saying the term gay meant homosexual back in the 14th century?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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