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Thread: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

  1. #51
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Nope. Not in that sense.

    What then is antidisestablishmentarianism about?

    No it isn't. The Church of England is an established church, the Anglican church in Australia is not an established religion. Religion establishment means a state church, we have been through this, your definition proved me right. Hence religion had its own category otherwise it would have been lumped with the other and let's not forget my definitions.

    Established church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England and the Church of Scotland in the United Kingdom. Such a sanction is discouraged in some countries, such as the United States, where this is covered by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

    Good for them.
    You're hung up on the term "established church" which meant "a church recognized by law as the official church of a nation or state and supported by civil authority" back in 1702.

    The language reads "AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION," not all establishments of religion are "established churches."

    A non-established Church, like the one on my block, is still an establishment of religion. Its religious, and an establishment by definition.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:16 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  2. #52
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Wow, online dictionary that actually proves my point.

    established church - definition of established church by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    es·tab·lished church (-stblsht)
    n.
    A church that a government officially recognizes as a national institution and to which it accords support.
    Dude, my own link even said that. established church - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

    Main Entry: established church
    Function: noun
    Date: circa 1702

    : a church recognized by law as the official church of a nation or state and supported by civil authority

    This is not something I missed but my entire point that you're still missing; See the above post.

    Not every establishment of religion is an "established Church" there are establishments which are not state Churches.

    Your argument here is tantamount to saying that the Church on my block is not an establishment. Trust me, its a private institution and it does in fact exist.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:21 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  3. #53
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Dude, my own link even said that.
    Indeed, it said religious establishments were state churchs. It proved my point, otherwise it wouldn't have listed them seperately.

    Not to mention we are talking about 18th century usage when establishment was even more strictly used.

    Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #54
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Indeed, it said religious establishments were state churchs. It proved my point, otherwise it wouldn't have listed them seperately.

    Not to mention we are talking about 18th century usage when establishment was even more strictly used.

    Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion
    No, it said that established churches are an example of an establishment, but not all religious establishments are established churches.

    Any private institution that exists can be an establishment, a non-state church would be a perfect example of one.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:23 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  5. #55
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post

    This is not something I missed but my entire point that you're still missing; See the above post.

    Not every establishment of religion is an "established Church" there are establishments which are not state Churches.
    You are mixing up the terms. An established church is an ancient religious usage, when one talks of religious establishments that is what one means, particularly in the past. Hence it is listed under its own usage in the definition. Your usage is a recent bastardisation and twisting of the term.

    The FF's new very well what the term meant.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    No, it said that established churches are an example of an establishment, but not all religious establishments are established churches.
    Yes they are in formal usage, particularly in the 18th century as that article shows. You are using lax English.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You are mixing up the terms. An established church is an ancient religious usage, when one talks of religious establishments that is what one means, particularly in the past. Hence it is listed under its own usage in the definition. Your usage is a recent bastardisation and twisting of the term.

    The FF's new very well what the term meant.
    I guarantee you that the definition for establishment has NOT changed, and that the constitution says the words "establishment of religion" not "established Churches."

    Establishment /= Established, and "establishment of religion" /= "established church."

    Yes the founding fathers knew what the terms meant, which is why they chose their words VERY carefully. The term you KEEP REFERRING TO was NOT USED, a word in that term was.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:26 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  8. #58
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post

    Any private institution that exists can be an establishment, a non-state church would be a perfect example of one.
    Not in the 18th century it couldn't and today it is only so through lax use of English. The FF's who lived in the 18th century knew what they were doing, they knew what the term meant.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-02-09 at 01:27 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I guarantee you that the definition for establishment has NOT changed, and that the constitution says the words "establishment of religion" not "established Churches."

    Establishment /= Established, and "establishment of religion" /= "established church."

    Yes the founding fathers knew what the terms meant, which is why they chose their words VERY carefully.
    It technically hasn't changed, an church establishment is still a state one in formal English but it was even so in informal English in the 18th century.

    Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion

    Yes the founding fathers knew what the terms meant, which is why they chose their words VERY carefully. The term you KEEP REFERRING TO was NOT USED, a word in that term was.
    Indeed they knew that it meant a state church if they'd meant anything else they could have easily chosen a term that meant clearly any signs of religions were banned from public institutions.

    Btw your own definition states establishment meant a state church so it is a strange tact you are taking.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-02-09 at 01:29 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    How very bass ackwards your arguments are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not in the 18th century is couldn't and today it is only so through lax use of English. The FF's who lived in the 18th century knew what they were doing, they knew what the term meant.
    Your usage is a recent bastardisation and twisting of the term.
    LOL, again you make a huge chronological mistake. The definition I cited for the WORD establishment predates the TERM "established Church" by over a century. Not to mention that the TERM "established church" was not ever used in the 1st amendment.

    Main Entry: es·tab·lish·ment
    Pronunciation: \i-ˈsta-blish-mənt\
    Function: noun
    Date: 15th century
    Main Entry: established church
    Function: noun
    Date: circa 1702
    You sure do love putting the kart before the horse... This kinda reminds me of that time that you claimed that a post that hadn't occurred yet justified your rudeness... You know... that thing I keep asking you about that you keep ignoring?

    Are you going to ignore this post as well?
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:37 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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