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Thread: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

  1. #41
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    But in plain English religious establishment means a state church, particularly in the 18th century. What don't you understand about this?
    I don't understand why you think the only establishments of religion are the ones established by the state.

    Look up the definition of an establishment, you're hooked on the verb and do not understand the noun.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 12:48 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post

    Yeah, you totally stumped me logically!
    At least you're grown up enough to admit that.

    I don't regard the very clear language of the 1st amendment as dubious.
    Except you won't make a proper argument. You just claim it means what you say it means without even explaining how the term establishment now means something else.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I don't understand why you think the only establishments of religion are the ones established by the state.
    Because that is what the term religious establishment means, particularly in the 18th century. A religious establishment does not mean just any church let alone any religion it means a state church, this is its meaning, particularly in the 18th century.

    Established church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England and the Church of Scotland in the United Kingdom. Such a sanction is discouraged in some countries, such as the United States, where this is covered by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Except you won't make a proper argument. You just claim it means what you say it means without even explaining how the term establishment now means something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Webster
    Main Entry:
    es·tab·lish·ment Listen to the pronunciation of establishment
    Pronunciation:
    \i-ˈsta-blish-mənt\
    Function:
    noun
    Date:
    15th century

    1: something established: as a: a settled arrangement ; especially : a code of laws b: established church c: a permanent civil or military organization d: a place of business or residence with its furnishings and staff e: a public or private institution 2: an established order of society: as aoften capitalized : a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) boften capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment> 3 a: the act of establishing b: the state of being established
    A single church can be an establishment of religion. You DO NOT understand plain english, if you want to debate this further; Debate the dictionary companies.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 12:51 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  5. #45
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    According to WEBSTER:

    Main Entry:
    es·tab·lish·ment Listen to the pronunciation of establishment
    Pronunciation:
    \i-ˈsta-blish-mənt\
    Function:
    noun
    Date:
    15th century

    1: something established: as a: a settled arrangement ; especially : a code of laws b: established church c: a permanent civil or military organization d: a place of business or residence with its furnishings and staff e: a public or private institution 2: an established order of society: as aoften capitalized : a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) boften capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment> 3 a: the act of establishing b: the state of being established
    Exactly.

    An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England and the Church of Scotland in the United Kingdom. Such a sanction is discouraged in some countries, such as the United States, where this is covered by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.


    We are talking about religious establishments in 18th century language.

    This does not mean just mentioning God in the inauguration.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-02-09 at 12:52 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #46
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Exactly.
    The definition proved that you don't understand what constitutes an establishment, it does not ONLY mean state establishments. Good night
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  7. #47
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    The definition proved that you don't understand what constitutes an establishment, it does not ONLY mean state establishments. Good night
    Actually it stated that religious establishment means a state church. It says establishment means state church. This was particularly true in the 18th century, see my Burke quote. Why else would it list the religious establisment part seperate. A religious establishment means a state church.

    Anyway even if your dubious twisting were correct it wouldn't help you much as Christianity broadly speaking is not an institution in that sense.

    Man I love showing up Athiests. See ya.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-02-09 at 01:01 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Actually it stated that religious establishment means a state church. It says establishment means state church. This was particularly true in the 18th century, see my Burke quote. Why else would it list the religious establisment part seperate. A religious establishment means a state church.
    So no non-state church has ever been established?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Anyway even if your dubious twisting were correct it wouldn't help you much as Christianity broadly speaking is no an institution.
    So? The constitution doesn't say "an establishment of Christianity." Christianity is a religion, and a Christian church for example is an establishment of religion, even if it is not established BY THE STATE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Man I love showing up Athiests. See ya.
    EDIT: Yeah you really showed me up, especially when you keep avoiding the fact that you claimed that a post that hadn't been made yet justified a rude post of yours.

    Psychic abilities totally trump my logic, and the meanings of words.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    Back to the topic, this oath doesn't bother me, nor should it bother any "secularist."

    If when the Justice prompting the oath says "repeat after me..." and speaks the lines for the president elect to repeat, and the *Justice* says "So help me god" at the end, as if it was part of the oath that was mandated, then THAT would be a problem. But historically the presidents have just added that part on their own without prompting.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 01-02-09 at 01:08 AM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #49
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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    So no non-state church has ever been established?
    Nope. Not in that sense.

    What then is antidisestablishmentarianism about?



    So? The constitution doesn't say "an establishment of Christianity." Christianity is a religion, and a Christian church for example is an establishment that is religious.
    No it isn't. The Church of England is an established church, the Anglican church in Australia is not an established religion. Religion establishment means a state church, we have been through this, your definition proved me right. Hence religion had its own category otherwise it would have been lumped with the other and let's not forget my definitions.

    Established church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England and the Church of Scotland in the United Kingdom. Such a sanction is discouraged in some countries, such as the United States, where this is covered by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.


    Back to the topic, this oath doesn't bother me, nor should it bother any "secularist."
    Good for them.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

    Wow, online dictionary that actually proves my point.

    established church - definition of established church by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    es·tab·lished church (-stblsht)
    n.
    A church that a government officially recognizes as a national institution and to which it accords support.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-02-09 at 01:14 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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