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Thread: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

  1. #41
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    That's what Bin Laden used to say too

    Terror 'Blowback' Burns CIA
    So you are equating Israel and AQ. Guess I'm not surprised.

  2. #42
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Except that I wasn't.
    Not according to the dictionary. So I wonder who is right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Which usually the case -- though, its still irrelevant to the point. The US government giving permission to a company to sell isnt the same thing as the US government selling the items it has in inventory or supplying the funding for the nation in question to buy the items.
    The point is the movement of US military hardware to others whom are not the US military (or part of the United States).

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Its not analogous to what Israel does, whereas the bombing of German factories (etc) is. Did you want to address the relevant analogy, or concede the point and then discuss somethng irrelevant to the issue you brought up?
    You love rhetoric games, I'm replying to what you write and you say it's irrelevant. I say under most circumstances, we should not be supplying our military hardware to others. Especially in wars in which both sides specifically target civilians. You wanted to claim we didn't target civilians, I pointed out that this was wrong; that we have. You wanted to bring up a situation which was beneficial to have sold weapons to allies. I pointed out situations in which it backfired. You want to say your points are relevant and mine are irrelevant even though they are providing counter to what you say...but that's why you want to blanket statement them away. It's all very counter-productive in the end. You can engage in this debate, or you can continue as you are. The choice is yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I was thnking more of the lend-lease programs to the UK and our other allies, the post-war MAP that re-armed Europe, the sales and supplies od US military equipment during the cold war to counter the USSR, etc.

    You knew that, right?
    I was thinking the countless times we've stuck our noses where they don't belong and it blew up in our face.

    But you knew that, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Now, did you want to argue that it would have been better had we done none of those things. or not?
    I'm not arguing absolutes, I'm arguing trends. I have stated before that under most circumstances we should not be supplying our military hardware to others. Especially in wars which specifically target civilians as the Israelis and Palestinians do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Had we done that 1940-1991 we'd be speaking Russian and/or German.
    That's absurd. It's the same claim when people say "if the terrorists win, we're gonna be Muslim". No way. We were directly attacked by the Japanese and that got us into WW II, so no matter what we were in that war. Russia posed direct threats to us during the Cold War, so we had proper ways to move there. What the hell is the point of this? Is it just hyperbole and plea to emotion to try to deflect the topic at hand? I have a sneaking suspicion the answer is "yes".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #43
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    ...

    You sure about that? What about the firebombing of Tokyo? what was that? That was a purposeful assault on the civilian populace. It was meant to inflict the highest number of causality possible. It's nothing to be encouraged.
    Actually the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo worked pretty well. The Allies won, did they not. Punishing the citizens had a lot to do with their acquiescence after the surrenders?
    Last edited by TOJ; 12-30-08 at 03:22 PM.

  4. #44
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Actually the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo worked pretty well. The Allies won, did they not. Punishing the citizens had a lot to do with their acquiescence after the surrenders?
    Short term, but it's a horrible horrible method to employ. And definitely not a long term solution as Israel has taken it to be. It did work specifically in our case, it's not working in this case.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not according to the dictionary. So I wonder who is right?
    You know as well as I do that I am right.

    The point is the movement of US military hardware to others whom are not the US military (or part of the United States).
    Which you seem to only have an issue with if the US taxpayer is involved. What you posted doesnt related to that.

    You love rhetoric games, I'm replying to what you write and you say it's irrelevant.
    Your post didnt have anything to do with what I said -- and was therefore irrelevant. Israel's attacks on Hamas, et al, are similar to the US raids on Germany, where civilian deaths were incidental, not deliberate. Your discussion of the firebombing of Tokyo isnt relevant to that as they arent similar to te raids on German indurety, or the Israeli raids on Hamas.

    But you know that, which is why you wont address the relevant analogy I made.

    Which really says all that needs to be said.


  6. #46
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You know as well as I do that I am right.
    I'm gonna go with the dictionary on this one. You misinterpreted the function of the word; but I had shown exactly what the word means. You're merely continuing your obtuse behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Which you seem to only have an issue with if the US taxpayer is involved. What you posted doesnt related to that.
    When it comes to the military, the tax payer is always involved. Who do you think pays for the government contracts that the private sector gets to build military equipment? The tax payer is always involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Israel's attacks on Hamas, et al, are similar to the US raids on Germany, where civilian deaths were incidental, not deliberate.
    That's your opinion. To me it seems well more like the firebombings of Tokyo, but with a lot more malice involved. They know damned well the civilians are there, they just have no moral objections with blowing them to hell to get to the terrorists. This is well known, be it apartment complexes or picnics or weddings; they'll go after whatever it takes to get the terrorists and kill whomever they have to in order to get the terrorists. They know full well what they're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Your discussion of the firebombing of Tokyo isnt relevant to that as they arent similar to te raids on German indurety, or the Israeli raids on Hamas.
    It's as relivant as your likening this to German industry. First off, this ain't no world war against a huge industrial and military power the likes of Nazi Germany. You're picking on civilians and guerrila soldiers. It's much more akin to the firebombing of Tokyo than it is to taking out the military machine of Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    But you know that, which is why you wont address the relevant analogy I made.
    Done and done. The attacking of German infrastructure was done to end the production capacities for the army. Palestine is in no way comparable to the military industrial complex of Nazi Germany. They don't have the resources, the factories, or the technology to be even close. There is less in common between the Palestine and the dismantling of the German war machine than there is with Palestine and the firebombing of Tokyo. Especially since both that and Israeli response work for the maximum amount of civilian causality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Which really says all that needs to be said.

    Yeah, real mature there. It just goes to show you have nothing in your argument, but if it makes you happy have at it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #47
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm gonna go with the dictionary on this one. You misinterpreted the function of the word; but I had shown exactly what the word means. You're merely continuing your obtuse behavior.
    You still know I'm right.

    When it comes to the military, the tax payer is always involved. Who do you think pays for the government contracts that the private sector gets to build military equipment? The tax payer is always involved.
    Talk about being obtuse...
    Tell me:
    When the Dutch, with their own money, bought new F16s from General Dynamics, after approval from Congress, how was the US taxpayer involved?

    That's your opinion.
    And it is correct.

    To me it seems well more like the firebombings of Tokyo, but with a lot more malice involved.
    Unsupportable.

    They know damned well the civilians are there, they just have no moral objections with blowing them to hell to get to the terrorists.
    No different than the US bombing of Germany.

    It's as relivant as your likening this to German industry. First off, this ain't no world war against a huge industrial and military power the likes of Nazi Germany.
    Hmm... speaking of obtuseness... let's examine yours:

    The targtets we hit in Germany were military targets. Civilians were killed when we hit them. That doesnt equate to us making war on civilians.

    The Israelis are doing the exact same thing -- hitting military targets, kowing that civilians would be killed. That, similerly, doesnt equate to makinr war on civilians.

    Yeah, real mature there. It just goes to show you have nothing in your argument,
    As the desert said to the grain of sand.

  8. #48
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    You merely have preconcieved notions of how you wish to structure an argument. Therefore, you can't accept counter arguments (much like you clearly being wrong about the function, form, and definition of a word). You claim this is likable to taking out the German military complex, but the two are worlds apart. There's no formal military Israel is fighting, there's no factory that they're bombing. They're bombing civilian areas, not factories, not production capabilities. They are targeting civilian areas with full knowledge that they are killing many many civilians in the hope that maybe they get a terrorist in that. As Cardinal said in the other thread, those responsible for the attack are going to be long gone by the time the retaliatory missiles get there. Israel knows this too, so the point is merely to inflict damage. That has well more in common with the firebombing of Tokyo than it does with the bombing of production facilities in Germany. You merely reiterate the same thing over and over because your argument can not stand the challenge. You based the whole of it on this analogy, and if the analogy is wrong your argument falls apart. Thus you can't let it be wrong, you have to stubbornly hold on to the argument even in the face of being completely wrong (like you were about the definition of "supply").

    Israel is not hitting military targets, they are bombing civilian areas. That's it. They know exactly what they are doing, they have no moral objections to it. They should do it with their own damned **** and not things they buy from us. We should not be supplying them with anything, not in a war which specifically targets civilians.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #49
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You merely have preconcieved notions of how you wish to structure an argument.
    Funny -- I thought that countering a relevant point with another relevant point was pretty standard.

    From now on, I will counter all of your 'point's with "Orange! Blue! Pepsi!"

    If you can't hande those counterpoints, I guess its due to your preconceptions.

    Therefore, you can't accept counter arguments (much like you clearly being wrong about the function, form, and definition of a word).
    Blue!

    You claim this is likable to taking out the German military complex, but the two are worlds apart. There's no formal military Israel is fighting, there's no factory that they're bombing.
    Green!

    They're bombing civilian areas, not factories, not production capabilities. They are targeting civilian areas with full knowledge that they are killing many many civilians in the hope that maybe they get a terrorist in that.
    Pink!

    As Cardinal said in the other thread, those responsible for the attack are going to be long gone by the time the retaliatory missiles get there. Israel knows this too, so the point is merely to inflict damage. That has well more in common with the firebombing of Tokyo than it does with the bombing of production facilities in Germany.
    Grape popsicles!!

    You merely reiterate the same thing over and over because your argument can not stand the challenge.
    Grape popsicles!!

    You based the whole of it on this analogy, and if the analogy is wrong your argument falls apart. Thus you can't let it be wrong, you have to stubbornly hold on to the argument even in the face of being completely wrong (like you were about the definition of "supply").
    Wet kleenex!!

    Israel is not hitting military targets, they are bombing civilian areas. That's it. They know exactly what they are doing, they have no moral objections to it. They should do it with their own damned **** and not things they buy from us. We should not be supplying them with anything, not in a war which specifically targets civilians.
    Pan pizza!

    There -- you have been soundly and thoroughly defeated.
    You not understanding how is a result of your preconceptions.


  10. #50
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    Re: Israel AF uses new US-supplied smart bomb

    Your immaturity negates anything you've done. The whole of your argument comes down to this. You have formed an opinion (one in which has been demonstrated false) and your debate style comes down to you saying "no I'm right" all the time; that's it. It's useless tripe, and nothing more. When I show your analogy is wrong you say "no, I'm right". When I show you the proper definition of a word you say "no, I'm right". That's it, that's the whole of your debate skills and it's all documented in this thread.

    You can grow up and debate like and adult, or continue with what you're doing. The choice is yours.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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