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Israeli air strikes target Gaza

dirtpoorchris said:
No. But I dont expect them to slaughter.
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The Associated Press: AP Top News at 8:42 p.m. EST

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security sites in Hamas-ruled Gaza Saturday and early Sunday, killing at least 230 people in one of the Mideast conflict's bloodiest assaults in decades. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket attacks that have traumatized southern Israel. Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead.
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Of course, any death of a civilian is unfortunate, but 15 dead civilians are by no means a 3 to 1 ratio.
 
Tal said:
And your proposal is again, very sweet and appealing on paper. But in the real, non-armchair world, these sorts of things don't work.
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Have poeple tried it? Turning kill zones into handshake zones and not listening to orders to shoot?


Tal said:
Of course, on the personal level you might shake a few hands. I myself have gotten to know some Palestinians and found them to be pleasant and peace-loving people. But the question is - will this handshake really solve the problems? Of course many civilians want peace with Israel, but some don't. And most importantly, their government doesn't let them to. They brought it about.
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Both brought it about. More want peace then war. The handshake will only solve the problem if people keep doing it. Then killers themselves will be demonized, not just a side. And yes.. A handshake really does solve problems.

I have forgiven on a handshake a few times. It is the first step.

Has Israel tried dropping peace leaflets once? I do not know and am honestly asking.
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In lala land, people put down their guns, reach across borders and make peace.

In the real world, bad people do bad things, and their PR campaigns look for, as Stalin liked to say, "Useful idiots" to side with them, or at the very least, not support the victims the bad people are after.

In this case, the Palestinians have a great PR machine that churns our plenty of "useful idiots" in western lala landom where people really think peace will ever be accepted by the Arab backed Palestinians that doesn't include the destruction of the State of Israel.

The rest of us hethens backing Israel have to contend with the "useful idiots" that either side with Palestine, or at worst throw out the moral equivalence card of "Well Israel did this so they aren't any better" crap.
 
Just stepping in to point out that repeated use of the word "civilian" is in itself propaganda, since Hamas combatants and police are not technically military. Several news agencies, primarily Reuters, lumps both combatants and non-combatants as "civilians" when covering Israel/Palestinian operations. It does, however, carefully label dead Israeli military as combatants.

This whole argument regarding Gaza just boggles my mind. A few years back, Israel and Hamas/Fatah negotiated an agreement with Israel. Israel agreed to forcefully remove every Israeli settlement and civilian from Gaza. In return, the Palestinians agreed to stop the rocket attacks on Israeli towns.

Within hours... not days, hours... of the vacating of the final Israeli from Gaza, the rockets started pouring into Israel. The world didn't say a word. In frustration, Israel blockaded Gaza to control the smuggling of weapons and explosives. The world went bonkers. Gaza continued to lob dozens and hundreds of rockets into Israel. The world didn't say a word. Israelis died from rocket attacks. The world responded with silence. Israel warned and begged Hamas for years to stop the rocket attacks on its people. The world supported this request with silence. The rockets continued unabated. Israel finally goes in to destroy the factories, the Hamas-controlled police station and other targets inside Gaza. The world goes bonkers, and every dead Palestinian, combatant or not, is labeled a "civilian".

The loss of even one life is too much, screams the outraged world. Except, it seems, if that life is Israeli. Then the world doesn't even seem to notice.
 
MrVicchio said:
In lala land, people put down their guns, reach across borders and make peace.

In the real world, bad people do bad things, and their PR campaigns look for, as Stalin liked to say, "Useful idiots" to side with them, or at the very least, not support the victims the bad people are after.

In this case, the Palestinians have a great PR machine that churns our plenty of "useful idiots" in western lala landom where people really think peace will ever be accepted by the Arab backed Palestinians that doesn't include the destruction of the State of Israel.

The rest of us hethens backing Israel have to contend with the "useful idiots" that either side with Palestine, or at worst throw out the moral equivalence card of "Well Israel did this so they aren't any better" crap.
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Then by all means. You go ahead and ride the hem of Israel's garmets and side with them unconditionally.
I rather be a useful idiot than a useless idiot.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Pick a date. Instead of dropping bombs drop leaflets that refer to the date. Say "On this date we want to try something new. For every one of you that comes to shake our hand. We will meet you to shake yours." Then just sit and wait and meet them on a line.

Repeat over and over no matter what any tv says you should do.
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Geopolitics does not revolve around idealism. The idea that all people want peace and would be willing to reciprocate to goodwill is far-fetched. Interests can and do clash. Conflict does result. Power and deterrence are crucial.

In the scheme of geopolitics, interests are far more important than ideals. A dramatic reorientation of how the Palestinians view their interests will be needed if progress is to be achieved in the quest for peace. More than likely, such a dramatic redefinition of interests won't be possible until Hamas is dismantled or destroyed. A "West Bank first" approach could act as a catalyst, if Gaza's residents can view progress in the West Bank and the contrast between the West Bank's progress and Gaza's lack of progress as reason to topple the Hamas terrorist regime.

Israel tried the idealistic path on several occasions. It unilaterally released Palestinian prisoners. It completely disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The Gaza disengagement was far more than the mere expression of symbolism or atmospherics to which the handshakes would amount. It gave the Palestinians tangible gains in land. It gave the Palestinians opportunity to begin building a viable society in the Gaza Strip. Those good faith gestures did not yield the desired diplomatic breakthroughs. Instead, the Palestinians pocketed those gains, Palestinian negotiating positions remained rigid, and Hamas continued to pursue its objective of Israel's destruction.
 
donsutherland1 said:
Geopolitics does not revolve around idealism. The idea that all people want peace and would be willing to reciprocate to goodwill is far-fetched. Interests can and do clash. Conflict does result. Power and deterrence are crucial.

In the scheme of geopolitics, interests are far more important than ideals. A dramatic reorientation of how the Palestinians view their interests will be needed if progress is to be achieved in the quest for peace. More than likely, such a dramatic redefinition of interests won't be possible until Hamas is dismantled or destroyed. A "West Bank first" approach could act as a catalyst, if Gaza's residents can view progress in the West Bank and the contrast between the West Bank's progress and Gaza's lack of progress as reason to topple the Hamas terrorist regime.

Israel tried the idealistic path on several occasions. It unilaterally released Palestinian prisoners. It completely disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. The Gaza disengagement was far more than the mere expression of symbolism or atmospherics to which the handshakes would amount. It gave the Palestinians tangible gains in land. It gave the Palestinians opportunity to begin building a viable society in the Gaza Strip. Those good faith gestures did not yield the desired diplomatic breakthroughs. Instead, the Palestinians pocketed those gains, Palestinian negotiating positions remained rigid, and Hamas continued to pursue its objective of Israel's destruction.
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I hope you are right.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Then by all means. You go ahead and ride the hem of Israel's garmets and side with them unconditionally.
I rather be a useful idiot than a useless idiot.
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You really think there can be peace in the ME wihtout conflict resolving it... 60 years bud, hasn't happened, and it won't. Either Israel will kick the crap out of them bad enough to stop the blood shed, or the Arabs will wipe Israel out. That's reality. And people like you support the latter solution, whether you admit it OR NOT.
 
MrVicchio said:
You really think there can be peace in the ME wihtout conflict resolving it... 60 years bud, hasn't happened, and it won't. Either Israel will kick the crap out of them bad enough to stop the blood shed, or the Arabs will wipe Israel out. That's reality. And people like you support the latter solution, whether you admit it OR NOT.
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Ya... Non-violence totally didnt work for MLK. If Martin Luther King Jr. instead would have organized the community to airstrike cops beating them up it would have worked wayyyyyyyy better.
The only way for peace is total annihilation or a huge peaceful non-violent revolution.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Ya... Non-violence totally didnt work for MLK. If Martin Luther King Jr. instead would have organized the community to airstrike cops beating them up it would have worked wayyyyyyyy better.
The only way for peace is total annihilation or a huge peaceful non-violent revolution.
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Different society, you're blind to the realities over there. MLK would have been shot by the Hamas Leadership if he were born over there.

Welcome to reality, sucks don't it.
 
MrVicchio said:
Different society, you're blind to the realities over there. MLK would have been shot by the Hamas Leadership if he were born over there.

Welcome to reality, sucks don't it.
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Hrm... Maybe we aren't as differnt as them as you would think. Was MLK assassinated? Think leadership anywhere was involved at all?
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Hrm... Maybe we aren't as differnt as them as you would think. Was MLK assassinated? Think leadership anywhere was involved at all?
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Yeah, but the difference is, our society allowed MLK to rise to prominence. Wouldn't happen over there.

And MLK was shot by a racist old bastard.
 
I don't like picking sides when it comes to these two warring factions, but in this case Israel has the initiative and the right. Hamas broke the ceasefire and Hamas continued to attack despite repeated warnings. It's just really unfortunate that the radicals in Palestine are the ones with the weapons, because they shout the loudest and are getting everyone killed.

That said, I don't think it's fair to declare Israel as universally justified and innocent in every instance where force is applied. Both sides are guilty of atrocities and I don't really support Israel either.
 
So very sad and proof dogma is evil:(
 
Orius said:
I don't like picking sides when it comes to these two warring factions, but in this case Israel has the initiative and the right. Hamas broke the ceasefire and Hamas continued to attack despite repeated warnings. It's just really unfortunate that the radicals in Palestine are the ones with the weapons, because they shout the loudest and are getting everyone killed.

That said, I don't think it's fair to declare Israel as universally justified and innocent in every instance where force is applied. Both sides are guilty of atrocities and I don't really support Israel either.
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I have a spine, a moral compass and can decide between right and wrong, good and evil. It takes some moral fortitude and character, so I understand why it's easy to hem and haw and not make a decision. I mean... you might be wrong or something.
 
I think this support of Israel is decidedly unfair, They have been blockading the Gaza strip for decades now denying the Palestinians access to safe water, electricity, food and medical supplies. Not to mention the uncharged detention of hundreds of young palestinian men.

How are palestinians expected to foster a climate of goodwill in which moderate positions can be adopted under such circumstances? Israelies live in a relatively peaceful and exteremly prosperous society, Palestinians live in an impoverished society where incursions by Israeli forces are commonplace.

I realise that Zionists belive Israel is responding to 'terrorist' attacks and defending herself but the reality is that Palestine does not have and almost certainly never will have the ability to destroy Israel. Hamas's rhetoric will never become reality. The reality is that this is an extremely asymetric war. Since september 2000 Palestinians have killed 123 Israeli children, over the same time period Israeli forces have killed 1050 Palestinian children (not including indriect deaths caused by resource blockades). This when Israels population is roughly double.

The ball is in Israels court, tit for tat retaliations are simply not a viable response. Releaseing 224 prisoners who were never charged or who had never even hurt an Israeli citizen is similarly not a viable response. This conflict can only be solved if Israel allows ecenomic properity to flourish in the West Bank and Gaza strip, I think given the choice between supporting Hamas in a impossible and unwinnable war and living in peace and prosperity the choice is obvious for all to see. The reason the palestinians have not chosen the latter is that they do not have that choice at the moment.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
No. But I dont expect them to slaughter.
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225 dead is HARDLY a slaughter. You need some historical perspective.

Wrong? Yes. Legally? Depends on who you are talking to. Morally? I feel so.
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So, it is wrong for the US to go after those who attacked it? Kind of tells us where you are coming from, doesn't it? :roll:
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Ya... Non-violence totally didnt work for MLK. If Martin Luther King Jr. instead would have organized the community to airstrike cops beating them up it would have worked wayyyyyyyy better.
The only way for peace is total annihilation or a huge peaceful non-violent revolution.
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You are comparing apples and elephants here. MLK was working withing a largely lawful, civilized society. The Israelis are nOT dealing with such reasonable people in the Gazans. They want the destruction of Israel and will do anything they can to bring that about. Peaceful non-violence does not work with that type.
 
ludahai said:
225 dead is HARDLY a slaughter. You need some historical perspective.



So, it is wrong for the US to go after those who attacked it? Kind of tells us where you are coming from, doesn't it? :roll:
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Compared to humanity refined. It is. By my standards 225 is horrific and bloody slaughter. Each and every one of those souls may have one day ripened and refined and found the way to a path of true goodness. But because of the press of a button, an oath to man, and a paycheck, we may never know what his destiny could have had in store for him. When it comes to humans. Its all for one and one for all, to me buddy. No matter what color, religion, belief. I just hope you all come around one day in exchange. Thats the MOST anyone could do. So do it.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Compared to humanity refined. It is. By my standards 225 is horrific and bloody slaughter. Each and every one of those souls may have one day ripened and refined and found the way to a path of true goodness. But because of the press of a button, an oath to man, and a paycheck, we may never know what his destiny could have had in store for him. When it comes to humans. Its all for one and one for all, to me buddy. No matter what color, religion, belief. I just hope you all come around one day in exchange. Thats the MOST anyone could do. So do it.
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While I mourn for innocent people who lose their lives, do you honestly believe all 225 were innocent? How many are part of the Hamas infrastructure? How many voted for a Hamas dominated government? Are they truly innocent?

Sad that innocent people have to die in war, but the Hamas government in Gaza started this. Israel has the right to protect themselves in whatever manner necessary. Are you going to deny that states have the right to protect themselves in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter?
 
Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead. More than 400 people were also wounded.
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link

Sounds like pretty good targeting in such a crowded area. The Israelis are going after the problem, the Hamas infrastructure. If Hamas wants this to end, they simply have to stop the rocket attacks and threats against Israel.

Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language cell-phone messages from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.
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Still want to blame the Israeli military?
 
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'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
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'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)
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'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)
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'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)
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THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS
 
I think this support of Israel is decidedly unfair, They have been blockading the Gaza strip for decades now denying the Palestinians access to safe water, electricity, food and medical supplies. Not to mention the uncharged detention of hundreds of young palestinian men.

How are palestinians expected to foster a climate of goodwill in which moderate positions can be adopted under such circumstances? Israelies live in a relatively peaceful and exteremly prosperous society, Palestinians live in an impoverished society where incursions by Israeli forces are commonplace.
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I agree.
Granted, there's much I don't understand about the situation, the history of the region, all of it.
But this is what it looks like from here.
I don't understand why the US is involved in this at all.
I don't understand, with all our technology, why things are still like this, in this day and age.
Nobody wants to die, nobody wants their children to be blown to ribbons in the streets, nobody wants to watch their children slowly starve to death or die of common illnesses for lack of medicine, deprived of basic necessities.
Not even religious ideogogues.
I just don't buy it.
I don't buy the "They hate us for our freedoms" spiel.
I can't believe anyone does.
They are not willing to sacrifice their children's lives because they hate freedom. There's got to be more to it.
Why is this happening?
We need to talk, we need immediate diplomatic intervention here.
We need to ensure that everyone has the basic necessities of life, and the opportunity and freedom to pursue their dreams and have the kinds of lives they want.
If anyone is preventing somebody else from having this, we need to find out why, and rectify the situation.
I don't believe these bombings are a solution.
Okay, now a bunch of innocent palestinian civilians, including many children, are dead.
Do you think that's going to make them stop?
You think that's going to stop Hamas?
When you kill somebody's children, they've got no reason to stop.
They've got nothing left to lose, no further reason to live, other than to exact justice on behalf of the dead.
I understand these Israeli attacks were not unprovoked.
But how does escalating the situation to this level resolve anything?
 
bhkad said:
The Muslims seem to operate under the premise that only retaliatory violence in direct proportion to the original offense is acceptable.

Westerners see retaliation as a way of stopping any further offenses
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Very true, do Palestinian sympathisers presume Hamas would use pea shooters if they possessed the real deal.

Paul.
 
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