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Thread: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

  1. #1411
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You are mistaking statehood for property rights. Catholic social teaching is a general thing, it include respect for private property and a belief it does not come from the state alone.
    We are not talking about Catholic social teaching. Since you want to bring it up, even the Catholic church does not teach that private property rights are absolute. In the Ottoman Empire and in the British Mandate, property rights are a function of the law, not religion - and applying Catholic social THEORY to an Islamic empire is rather silly.

    The land was owned individually and collectively by the Palestinians. Does the fact they did not have a state mean that the house a Palestinian family had owned for centuries was not theirs?
    Again, do you have any idea what private property laws were in the Ottoman Empire?
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    They didn't want it anymore after WWII. Can't say I don't blame them.

    See, the two of us can disagree without personal attacks. Some people can learn from that.
    Sure we didn't want it but UK did its own part in this conflict

  3. #1413
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    We are not talking about Catholic social teaching. Since you want to bring it up, even the Catholic church does not teach that private property rights are absolute.
    Right. You keep confusing being absolute with existing, the rights were wiped out. Catholic social teaching believes in property rights and that they aren't just derived from whatever the state wants to grant.

    On it (private possessions) he leaves impressed, as it were, a kind of image of his person, so that it must be altogether just that he should possess that part as his very own and that no one in any way should be permitted to violate his right.


    Now civil laws, which, when just, derive their power from the natural law itself, confirm and, even by the use of force, protect this right of which we speak. -- And this same right has been sanctioned by the authority of the divine law, which forbids us most strictly even to desire what belongs to another. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his house, nor his field, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his."

    LeoXIII, Rerum Novarum

    In the Ottoman Empire and in the British Mandate, property rights are a function of the law, not religion - and applying Catholic social THEORY to an Islamic empire is rather silly.
    Actual they were a function of custom. You are a Catholic was the point though.

    Again, do you have any idea what private property laws were in the Ottoman Empire?
    That is not important, the point is they owned the property individually and collectively.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 01-04-09 at 07:15 AM.
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  4. #1414
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    How ironic: I'm arguing in favor of the raid on facebook

  5. #1415
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    Well excuse me if it's a bit off topic, but I was discussing about it on facebook with a friend, and we were thinking about that:

    It's extremely difficult to reach an agreement between Flemish and Walloons in Belgium (and I guess it's the same in other countries too). If there were Flemish checkpoints in Wallonia, a security fence along the linguistic border that includes Walloon communes on the Flemish side, Flemish colonies in Wallonia or rockets flying over Brussels...well that would simply be impossible.

    With this comparison, I understand better why the Israeli want to retaliate, but it also underlines the fact that any attempt of agreement is doomed to fail as long as BOTH
    - Hamas does not immediately stop launching rockets
    - Israel does not immediately goes back to its side of the Green Line

    Something that could help is to consider both parts as equally guilty. As long as you don't do that, you will look down at one part and blame it for everything.

  6. #1416
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    How about when that source spouts propoganda without providing credible "evidence?"
    How is an image of Israel's control over the land considered propaganda? Or do you deny that Israel has grown since 1946?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  7. #1417
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Perhaps Hamas shouldn't store mutitions in mosques.
    Except that is has not been proven that they have stored munitions in mosques. Thus, the dilemma.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  8. #1418
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    I don't really wish to get into an argument about the evils of private property and private land ownership, I think we are though coming from a similar angle.
    Unless you get into what ownership actually means, you are never going to get to the root of the problem and are going to end up having meaningless debates about whose land it "rightfully" is:

    The land belonged to the Palestinians
    As can be seen by this quote. Which always leads to going back to see who the "original owners" were, as if that's relevant to today:

    It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Check Ottoman land policy.
    Ownership of land is the ability to deny someone else access or use of that land. In other words, it implies a threat of force or violence, and in the end that is all that it is based upon. Therefore, the only people that "have a right" to the land are those that are able to successfully deny others access/use of it through force.

    This is a poor tactic for a few reasons:

    1. It is focusing on the question of land ownership and not on the act of expansionist colonialism, which is the real heart of the issue. It distracts from the real issue.
    2. It implies that there is such a thing as "rightful ownership," which doesn't really exist in any meaningful sense.
    3. It also implies that, since the Palestinians have a "rightful ownership" of that land, the Israelis should then be displaced in order to return the land. This obviously isn't going to happen.

    When you focus on the displacement itself, you are focusing on the very act of expansionist colonialism which started this whole thing. Palestinians weren't mad because they lost their land; they were mad because they were forced to leave their homes and their communities and pushed into refugee camps, lost their ways of life and quality of life and now have to live with Israel at their doorstep.

  9. #1419
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    The issue is not land, the issue is Arab hatred of Jews. As long as Jews exhist, Arabs will hate them.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

  10. #1420
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    Re: Israeli air strikes target Gaza

    The issue is not land, the issue is Arab hatred of Jews. As long as Jews exhist, Arabs will hate them.
    Sounds like the issue here is actually your hatred of Arabs.

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