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Thread: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

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    Re: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Working in what sense? They are certainly working to stem the revolutionary tide that has been brewing on the continent for the past few decades. This is of course until his "reforms" fail, which they inevitably will, considering the fact that they are governed by oil prices, which are doing terribly right now, and that they are the first things done away with during a crisis in capitalism.

    So if by "working" you mean temporarily letting off some steam and containing the revolutionary sentiment before another plunge into poverty, corruption and violence then you would be right.
    Well like i say look at things like literacy, poverty rates, infant mortality etc. The improvements are pretty conclusive evidence of the reforms having worked as far as i can see. I would imagine most Venuzuleans would be more concerned with whether or not there kids can go to school or access health care then whether or not capatalism gets overthrown. I take your point about the oil though. As regards "containing revolutionary sentiment" does that mean that you belive that by making things better Chavez is making the overthrow of capatalism less likely? Isnt that effectively saying that its better for things to get worse?

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    Re: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

    Well like i say look at things like literacy, poverty rates, infant mortality etc. The improvements are pretty conclusive evidence of the reforms having worked as far as i can see. I would imagine most Venuzuleans would be more concerned with whether or not there kids can go to school or access health care
    You're missing the entire point of my post. What you consider as "works" I consider to be a temporary measure to stem the tide of discontent within the country. What I'm saying, and I'm repeating myself here, is that these changes will inevitably end and will "bring about another plunge into poverty, corruption and violence." In other words, these measures are inevitably doomed to fail because they exist within a capitalist framework.

    A very good example of this is Allende, who did much of what Chavez is doing right now. While it's not guaranteed that the movement in Venezuela will end with a coup, what is inevitable is that it will end somehow.

    As regards "containing revolutionary sentiment" does that mean that you belive that by making things better Chavez is making the overthrow of capatalism less likely?
    By offering temporary programs and tossing breadcrumbs to the people he is staving off revolution, yes.

    Isnt that effectively saying that its better for things to get worse?
    No, it is better for a group of class conscious Venezuelans to stand up and convince their brothers and sisters that all they are getting are breadcrumbs, and that eventually they will no longer even get that, unless they take the whole loaf for themselves (wow, lame analogy, but it totally worked).

    What is missing is a mass workers movement in Venezuela to fight the opportunists and economists.

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    Re: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You're missing the entire point of my post. What you consider as "works" I consider to be a temporary measure to stem the tide of discontent within the country. What I'm saying, and I'm repeating myself here, is that these changes will inevitably end and will "bring about another plunge into poverty, corruption and violence." In other words, these measures are inevitably doomed to fail because they exist within a capitalist framework.

    A very good example of this is Allende, who did much of what Chavez is doing right now. While it's not guaranteed that the movement in Venezuela will end with a coup, what is inevitable is that it will end somehow.



    By offering temporary programs and tossing breadcrumbs to the people he is staving off revolution, yes.



    No, it is better for a group of class conscious Venezuelans to stand up and convince their brothers and sisters that all they are getting are breadcrumbs, and that eventually they will no longer even get that, unless they take the whole loaf for themselves (wow, lame analogy, but it totally worked).

    What is missing is a mass workers movement in Venezuela to fight the opportunists and economists.
    Well i guess tempory measures are better then no measures. Also how is whats happening in Venuzuela at present not a mass movement?

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    Re: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
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    Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance

    Rampant consumerism will not lead to any nations wealth.
    Comments?
    I'd love to see the answer to Kandahar's comments. But that stated, this is the beginning of the end for Venezuela; inflation is ramping up, businesses are pulling out and this latest Communist action will send a message to the world's businesses; you're not welcome to come here to create jobs and opportunity.

    Consumerism and private property rights are imperative to a growing economy. In the long run, even WITH Venezuela’s oil revenues, they will begin to look like Zimbabwe. Communists and Dictators always destroy their economies; then they look to their last resort to keep power which is by brutally holding down dissention and using the military to maintain order.

    No one can see this as a GOOD thing; at least no one with a brain.

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    Re: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

    Well i guess tempory measures are better then no measures.
    And bourgeois democracy is better than bourgeois dictatorship. That doesn't imply that we should be apologists for bourgeois rule.

    Also how is whats happening in Venuzuela at present not a mass movement?
    It is, but it isn't a mass revolutionary movement of class conscious workers. They have certainly developed a lot throughout Chavez's time in office, and have benefitted from it to the extent that the Bolivarian movement has gotten many more into political and economic struggles than would have been if he didn't take office. However, with Chavez attempting to centralize authority of the movement through the PSUV and denunciations of groups not aligned with the PSUV as "reactionary" (even after the PSUV expels comrades that criticize Chavez), the movement has been at an important intersection. We'll see which direction it goes.

    I'd love to see the answer to Kandahar's comments. But that stated, this is the beginning of the end for Venezuela; inflation is ramping up, businesses are pulling out and this latest Communist action will send a message to the world's businesses; you're not welcome to come here to create jobs and opportunity.
    PSUV is not Communist.

    Consumerism and private property rights are imperative to a growing economy. In the long run, even WITH Venezuela’s oil revenues, they will begin to look like Zimbabwe. Communists and Dictators always destroy their economies; then they look to their last resort to keep power which is by brutally holding down dissention and using the military to maintain order.
    What is "Communism"? How do you reconcile this nonsenical belief with the belief that the USSR had one of the fastest growing economies ever?
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 12-23-08 at 03:20 PM.

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    Re: Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    Chavez says mall to be expropriated in Venezuela: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance

    Rampant consumerism will not lead to any nations wealth.
    Comments?
    This inicident is par for the course for President Chavez. He has a long history of failing to respect property rights. More such actions are likely down the road. Foreign investors should be careful about committing their resources to Venezuela so long as Chavez retains power.

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