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Thread: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

  1. #21
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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    That land ... which was originally jewish property anyway, was technically under BRITISH CONTROL when it was given to them.

    Any land taken after that in the 6 days War (which the Arabs started) is considered the spoils of war.

    Israel was forced to defend herself from multiple attackers. Those attackers pulled out of ther areas in question during that conflict and therefore THEY ABANDONED THE LAND.

    Learn to accept the fact that the land there DOES NOT belong to those countries anymore.

    If not for a war started by the Egyptians and Jordanians, the ownership of that land would be IRRELEVANT.

    Thanks.
    It is a violation of International Law to hold on to land taken in a war. Even the Israeli Supreme Court refer's to this land as "occupied territory".

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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I could not disagree more strongly. Israel, like any other sovereign state, has a right of self-defense. So long as it is being attacked by rockets, it has the same right enjoyed by every other sovereign state to defend itself against those responsible for the attacks on its civilian population e.g., Hamas. Self-defense is not the same thing as terrorism.
    Yes and where did that sovereignty come from? It was an arbitrary carving out of the land by imperial power. The Palestinians have a legitimate historical grievance that has been ongoing for generations, and to this day their land becomes smaller and smaller in accordance with the expansion of another culture.

    Until that grievance is acknowledged and attempts at reconciliation are made, there are going to be continued attacks, even after Palestine is fully absorbed. Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization by the West because it is contrary to our support of Israel. Within the Middle East views differ.

    I essentially call into question who we choose to label as "terrorists". I think Israel and Palestine have both committed acts of terrorism in order to support their individual agendas, and it all stems from historical grievances. The fact that the West has decided to prop up one of those parties makes little difference in my mind. Who we call "terrorists" changes year to year based our own political whims.

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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Lets see...

    One side is an open, liberal, Western democracy, and the other side wants to destroy that open, liberal, Western democracy because it has the audacity to exist.

    Seems pretty clear to me.
    Israel is a continual violator of international law, i.e. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the violation of ceasefire agreements based on whimsical evidence of aggression, etc. However those discrepancies cannot be challenged due to U.S. veto power at the Security Council.

    States that have no special interests in the Middle East, such as China, have continually called for investigation into Israel's behaviour at the UN, and such attempts are blocked at every turn by Western special interests.

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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    It is ironic that there are a flow of bills constantly against Israel made in the UN but nary a peep about Palestine, even when they engage in tactics and methods that are directly contrary to the very conventions which are created and enforced in the UN.

    Israel on the other hand has made HUGE concessions in the past with land and property to the point of removing their own people at gunpoint. And yet you see no such concessions from the Palestine state other than cease fires (which aren't enforced). Instead of trying to make deals with Israel that would be profitable for their own people and economy they suicide bomb disco's. Even Palestine's neighbor states are fed up with their extremist crap. Its no secret why Egypt and Jordan closed their borders with actual 15ft metal and concrete barriers (which Hamas blew up) to Palestine when they feared that many would try to immigrate over.
    I don't think it's that cut and dry. Even within Hamas there are moderates who would be willing to see a joint settlement of Jerusalem. It has historically been a contentious spot where all religions want to rule. I personally have always favored the idea of making Jerusalem a neutral zone that is owned by no one, but all religions may have access. Giving one religious body control over it is unacceptable at any time in history.

    I also agree that Israel has made concessions, but it has been at the behest of the United States and I don't think it has any intention of really allowing Palestine to exist in the long term. Extremism begets extremism. It isn't just the ideology of Hamas that is driving it, but real historical events. Israel has blown up their own share of innocents. My Palestinian friend in Toronto grew up getting shelled on near his home, and chased by Israeli soldiers through the streets with death threats for absolutely nothing.

    You can't just label one side as the victim and the other as the aggressor. Both sides are guilty of atrocities, and I am tired of the one-sidedness coming from Western observers just because they have been spoon fed propaganda about how righteous Israel is.

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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    That land ... which was originally jewish property anyway, was technically under BRITISH CONTROL when it was given to them.
    Actually, it belonged to the Canaanites before it belonged to the ancient Hebrews. Britain did not have sovereignty over the land, it was a League of Nations mandate. That did NOT equate to colony status of having sovereign power over the land.

    Any land taken after that in the 6 days War (which the Arabs started) is considered the spoils of war.
    Not in modern international law. For land to be transferred from one state to another, a treaty must be signed and properly ratified specifically executing the transfer. This is basic international law 101.

    Israel was forced to defend herself from multiple attackers. Those attackers pulled out of ther areas in question during that conflict and therefore THEY ABANDONED THE LAND.
    But no peace treaty transferred that land to Israeli soveriegnty. Its technical status after 1967 was that of belligerant occupation.

    Learn to accept the fact that the land there DOES NOT belong to those countries anymore.
    It doesn't belong to them anymore because they have given up their claim to the land, but when they did so, there was no transfer of soveriegnty to Israel.

    If not for a war started by the Egyptians and Jordanians, the ownership of that land would be IRRELEVANT.
    Agreed, but that doesn't give Israel any lawful title to that land in accordance with international law.

    Thanks.
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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Yes and where did that sovereignty come from? It was an arbitrary carving out of the land by imperial power. The Palestinians have a legitimate historical grievance that has been ongoing for generations, and to this day their land becomes smaller and smaller in accordance with the expansion of another culture.
    Actually, the division was sanctioned by the United Nations General Assembly. The Jews accepted it, the Arabs invaded.

    Until that grievance is acknowledged and attempts at reconciliation are made, there are going to be continued attacks, even after Palestine is fully absorbed. Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization by the West because it is contrary to our support of Israel. Within the Middle East views differ.
    Hamas is a terrorist organization because they engage in random attacks on civilian targets with the purpose of causing TERROR in the civilian populace.
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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Israel is a continual violator of international law, i.e. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the violation of ceasefire agreements based on whimsical evidence of aggression, etc. However those discrepancies cannot be challenged due to U.S. veto power at the Security Council.

    States that have no special interests in the Middle East, such as China, have continually called for investigation into Israel's behaviour at the UN, and such attempts are blocked at every turn by Western special interests.
    Israel has the absolute right to defend itself from agression from both state and non-state actors in accordance with the United Nations charter.
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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Yes and where did that sovereignty come from? It was an arbitrary carving out of the land by imperial power.
    The United Nations voted to partition the land in accordance with the recomendations of UNSCOP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization by the West because it is contrary to our support of Israel. Within the Middle East views differ.
    Hamas is a terrorist organization because of its Charter and its terrorist actions to realize the aims of that Charter which plainly states... no negotiations and no peace with Israel. Ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Israel is a continual violator of international law, i.e. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,
    Israel was never a party to the NPT and thus is not in violation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    the violation of ceasefire agreements based on whimsical evidence of aggression, etc.
    70 Hamas rockets landed in Israel a few days ago. Hamas validated the Israeli reports. Yet somehow you consider this whimsical evidence. wtf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I don't think it's that cut and dry. Even within Hamas there are moderates who would be willing to see a joint settlement of Jerusalem.
    Plz show citations where Khaled Mashal and/or Ismail Haniya (the leadership of Hamas) has offered to bifurcate Jerusalem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It isn't just the ideology of Hamas that is driving it, but real historical events.
    There is no doubt. The Hamas Charter is the primordial and overarching driving force of the organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    My Palestinian friend in Toronto grew up getting shelled on near his home, and chased by Israeli soldiers through the streets with death threats for absolutely nothing.
    I've lost dear friends from Palestinian rocket attacks and suicide bombings. Civilians all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I am tired of the one-sidedness coming from Western observers just because they have been spoon fed propaganda about how righteous Israel is.
    Are Jordan and Egypt "western observers"? Much like Israel, both are sick and tired of Hamas. Israel FM Tzipi Livni is in Egypt at this moment consulting with President Hosni Mubarak on additional mutual efforts to further isolate Hamas.

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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Israel warns Hamas over rockets
    Thursday, 25 December 2008

    Israeli leaders have issued stern warnings to Palestinian militant group Hamas to stop rocket attacks on Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he would not hesitate to strike Hamas and another militant group, Islamic Jihad, in the Gaza Strip. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni warned Israel "cannot tolerate" Palestinian militants targeting Israeli citizens. A six-month ceasefire in Gaza between Israel and Hamas ended last week.

    Speaking after talks with the Egyptian leadership in Cairo on the failed ceasefire in Gaza, Ms Livni described the latest escalation as "unbearable". "Hamas needs to understand that our aspiration to live in peace doesn't mean that Israel is going to take this kind of situation any longer. Enough is enough," she said.

    Ms Livni had earlier been holding talks with Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak and Prime Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit, who brokered the ceasefire. Mr Aboul Gheit urged restraint from both sides, and said Egypt would continue to act as a mediator but admitted that a new truce currently seemed unlikely. Relations between Egypt and Gaza are strained, our correspondent says.

    President Mubarak has told the militants he believes they are making a mistake in abandoning the ceasefire. It is widely understood the Egyptians are furious with Hamas for boycotting peace talks with Fatah last month, which were due to be held in Cairo. The question now, our correspondent says, is whether the Egyptians would back an Israeli military offensive against Hamas. The London-based newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi has reported that Egypt would not object to a limited Israeli operation in the Gaza Strip, aimed at toppling Hamas.
    Source: BBC News

    Everyone in the area is fairly well fed up with the antics of Hamas.

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    Re: Major Israeli settlement 'unlawful'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Yes and where did that sovereignty come from?
    There had never been a sovereign Palestine. The land in question was held by various empires, Roman, Ottoman, and British. Following the end of World War II, the issue of how to bring the region to sovereignty arose as the British Mandate approached its end.

    It was an arbitrary carving out of the land by imperial power. The Palestinians have a legitimate historical grievance that has been ongoing for generations, and to this day their land becomes smaller and smaller in accordance with the expansion of another culture.
    The UN was charged with finding a formula to bring about sovereignty. The core needs of the area's two peoples--Jews and Arabs, each of whom had historic legitimacy in the region--had to be accommodated. As no single state formula could achieve that requirement given the animosities between the area's two peoples and as perpetuation of the British Mandate was not feasible, a partition plan offered the most effective approach. Although the partition plan fell short of meeting the two peoples' aspirations, it did satisfy their needs in which each could have a sovereign state of its own.

    Without doubt, there were no perfect solutions. The partition plan was the best that could have been achieved.

    Until that grievance is acknowledged and attempts at reconciliation are made, there are going to be continued attacks, even after Palestine is fully absorbed. Hamas is seen as a terrorist organization by the West because it is contrary to our support of Israel. Within the Middle East views differ.
    All reasonable people understand that the partition plan was not perfect. It was the best that could have been done to accommodate the core needs of the two peoples in the face of irreconcilable differences between the two.

    Reconciliation will occur when the parties are willing to compromise so as to coexist. Israel has met that standard e.g., with Prime Minister Barak's acceptance of President Clinton's bridging proposal. Prime Minister Sharon met that standard in setting forth a bold but ultimately unsuccessful unilateral disenagement from the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians have shown little flexibility on matters such as refugees (and their descendants) and Jerusalem.

    Hamas is a terrorist entity, not because it takes positions contrary to the West's support of Israel but because it deliberately attacks civilians in pursuit of gain.

    I essentially call into question who we choose to label as "terrorists". I think Israel and Palestine have both committed acts of terrorism in order to support their individual agendas, and it all stems from historical grievances.
    The conflict stems from historic grievances. However, self-defense, even when unintended harm to civilians is caused, is not the same thing as terrorism. Israel has not engaged in terrorism, as it has not deliberately attacked civilians in pursuit of its policy objectives. Hamas, on the other hand, has deliberately attacked civilians in pursuit of its goals.

    The fact that the West has decided to prop up one of those parties makes little difference in my mind. Who we call "terrorists" changes year to year based our own political whims.
    Terrorists are those who deliberately attack civilians in a bid to further their policy objectives. Thus, the determination of whom is a terrorist is not a "political whim."

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