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Thread: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Galileo faced sanction from the Church because he refused to teach his theories as theories and insisted as teaching them as truth. Given the evidence at the time, the Church's stance was the reasonable one. According to the scientific method - something that Catholic scientists made signigificant contributions to the development of - Galileo did NOT have enough evidence at that point for his theories to be considered scientific law.
    First: They weren't Galileo's theories. They were Copernicus and Kepler's. Galileo only taught them. He gets far too much credit for this because he got sanctioned by the church.

    Second: He most definitely did have enough evidence to call it law, All observational data supported Kepler's laws of planetary motion within a Copernican system while NONE of the observable data supported the geocentric theory. What Galileo did that became undeniable proof, was observe the phases of Venus, which could ONLY happen in a Heliocentric system.

    Third: He quoted Pope Urban directly with the Simplico character. During his trial, this was a big deal.



    Trying to spin this as though Galileo was somehow wrong to teach it as truth is preposterous form any scientific standpoint. The evidence was very, very clear and proved that geocentricity must be false and heliocentircity must be true.

    The only reason Urban fought the theory was over scripture. The reason Galileo got bitch slapped by the church, though, was the Simplico character using the Pope's favorite arguments against the theory yet being portrayed as a simple minded retard.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    First: They weren't Galileo's theories. They were Copernicus and Kepler's. Galileo only taught them. He gets far too much credit for this because he got sanctioned by the church.

    Second: He most definitely did have enough evidence to call it law, All observational data supported Kepler's laws of planetary motion within a Copernican system while NONE of the observable data supported the geocentric theory. What Galileo did that became undeniable proof, was observe the phases of Venus, which could ONLY happen in a Heliocentric system.

    Third: He quoted Pope Urban directly with the Simplico character. During his trial, this was a big deal.



    Trying to spin this as though Galileo was somehow wrong to teach it as truth is preposterous form any scientific standpoint. The evidence was very, very clear and proved that geocentricity must be false and heliocentircity must be true.

    The only reason Urban fought the theory was over scripture. The reason Galileo got bitch slapped by the church, though, was the Simplico character using the Pope's favorite arguments against the theory yet being portrayed as a simple minded retard.
    Very good interesting points.

    Now please support your points by giving the source where the (religious) scripture says that the stars, the Sun, and/or the planets revolve around Earth. You can use any record available showing the position of the Church supporting the geocentric theory as the validated one only. Otherwise, I think you may be following the traffic of a common misinformation.

    (By the way, the only thing I like from Catholics is that they do drink beer, wine, and hard liquor, and they dance in parties while other Christian denominations say that such things are prohibited by the New Testament. I wonder if Jesus changed water into wine in a party, or if he changed water into grape juice in a Sunday's service. )

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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by conquer View Post
    Very good interesting points.

    Now please support your points by giving the source where the (religious) scripture says that the stars, the Sun, and/or the planets revolve around Earth. You can use any record available showing the position of the Church supporting the geocentric theory as the validated one only. Otherwise, I think you may be following the traffic of a common misinformation.

    (By the way, the only thing I like from Catholics is that they do drink beer, wine, and hard liquor, and they dance in parties while other Christian denominations say that such things are prohibited by the New Testament. I wonder if Jesus changed water into wine in a party, or if he changed water into grape juice in a Sunday's service. )
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by conquer View Post
    Now please support your points by giving the source where the (religious) scripture says that the stars, the Sun, and/or the planets revolve around Earth. You can use any record available showing the position of the Church supporting the geocentric theory as the validated one only. Otherwise, I think you may be following the traffic of a common misinformation.
    It wasn't me that said anything about scripture supporting a geocentric universe. I said that the Church, and Pope Urban held that belief at the time. Don't place words in my mouth implying that I said Scripture says that the stars sun and planets revolve around the sun. I was only giving the doctrine of the Church at the time.

    Cardinal Bellamine's letter to Father Foscarini should be enough to prove that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Bellarmine
    1. It seems to me that your Reverence and Signor Galileo act prudently when you content yourselves with speaking hypothetically and not absolutely, as I have always understood that Copernicus spoke. To say that on the supposition of the Earth's movement and the Sun's quiescence all the celestial appearances are explained better than by the theory of eccentrics and epicycles is to speak with excellent good sense and to run no risk whatever. Such a manner of speaking suffices for a mathematician. But to want to affirm that the Sun, in very truth, is at the center of the universe and only rotates on its axis without travelling from east to west, is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our holy faith by contradicting the Scriptures.
    Later Bellarmine invokes the Council of Trent, and how reinterpretation of the scriptures by anyone but the holy fathers was against the law.

    Urban was far more simpathetic to Galileo until the release of his book where he insulted Urban. That was the turning point and why Galieo was sanctioned.

    Council of Trent was used as the reason, but in truth, Urban was friendly with Glaileo beforehand. It was Galileo's arrogance that got him busted. He approached the issue in a way that almost begged for his sanctioning.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    That being said, I truly believe that far too many people impugn Catholicism over this, especially considering the theory was created by a Catholic Monk.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Did Jesus speak English?

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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Council of Trent was used as the reason, but in truth, Urban was friendly with Glaileo beforehand. It was Galileo's arrogance that got him busted. He approached the issue in a way that almost begged for his sanctioning.
    If Galileo had published it as a hypothesis, he would have been absolutely fine. He didn't. While the Church over-reacted (though not to the extent that has been claimd on here), Galileo should have been a bit more diplomatic in his approach.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    He was not killed by the Church.
    I didn't say he was. Do you deny that the Church threatened him with execution because of what he was saying? How is that not persecution again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    I am not talking about the masses, even educated men did not entirely agree.
    Still irrelevant. The laws of physics are not subject to a popular vote, even if the voters are all "educated men." Galileo had sufficient evidence to draw the conclusion. Copernicus' evidence had been available for nearly a century; Kepler had published his evidence a couple decades prior to Galileo's trial. The Arabs had the evidence centuries earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    There simply was not enough evidence AT THAT POINT in time to regard the ideas as a scientific law. The compromise agreed to by the Church and Galileo was responsible and reasonable. Galileo broke it, and in doing so, violated a prime tenant of the scientific method.
    Umm I think you need to read up on what the scientific method is. It has nothing to do with whether or not you teach something as a "theory" or a "fact" (which are basically the same thing). It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not you renege on an agreement with the Catholic Church.

    The scientific method is about making a hypothesis, developing an experiment, interpreting the results of that experiment, and refining the hypothesis until no other valid hypotheses exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    You are right in that scientific law is not democratic or left up to public approval, but at the same time, you need to acquire sufficient evidence to proclaim something a law, and Galileo had simply not met the standard AT THAT TIME. Though, ironic to your point, at the time Galileo was supposedly threatened with death by the Church, Catholic scientists were actually building on Galileo's work.
    That's all well and good, but again, it's wholly irrelevant to the fact that he was threatened with death due to his teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    Please, get all of the facts before you continue on your anti-Catholic rants.
    The fact that you are defending the Catholic Church on one of the ugliest periods in its history is absolutely disgusting.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-23-08 at 06:29 PM.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I didn't say he was. Do you deny that the Church threatened him with execution because of what he was saying? How is that not persecution again?
    He was put under house arrest, not killed. Again, I have already said that this was an over-reaction on the part of the church. However, it wasn't even because of WHAT he said but HOW he presented it.

    Still irrelevant. The laws of physics are not subject to a popular vote, even if the voters are all "educated men." Galileo had sufficient evidence to draw the conclusion. Copernicus' evidence had been available for nearly a century; Kepler had published his evidence a couple decades prior to Galileo's trial. The Arabs had the evidence centuries earlier.
    Even modern scholars of that era of history note that there wasn't enough corroborating evidence to present the theory as law. Had he presented it as a hypothesis that was still under investigation (an investigation that many Catholic scientists were taking part in) he would have had no problems at all.

    Umm I think you need to read up on what the scientific method is. It has nothing to do with whether or not you teach something as a "theory" or a "fact" (which are basically the same thing). It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not you renege on an agreement with the Catholic Church.
    There is something about having sufficient corroborating evidence, something that many scholars of that period of history say was not present in sufficient quantity until decades later.

    The scientific method is about making a hypothesis, developing an experiment, interpreting the results of that experiment, and refining the hypothesis until no other valid hypotheses exist.
    It also needs to be replicated and sufficiently corroborated.

    That's all well and good, but again, it's wholly irrelevant to the fact that he was threatened with death due to his teachings.
    His troubles had to do with HOW, now WHAT, he did. That included the way he used the words of the Pope in his book. Not only do I find no credible evidence that Galileo's life was ever in danger as a result of this controversy, Pope Urban actually tried to provide some support for Galileo during the crisis.

    The fact that you are defending the Catholic Church on one of the ugliest periods in its history is absolutely disgusting.
    The fact that people overstate what the Church allegedly did and use this as evidence that the Church was somehow "anti-science" is absolutely disgusting.
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