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Thread: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Galileo faced sanction by the church for putting the words of the Pope at the time in the mouth of a fool (Simplico?) in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems.

    It was the fact that he offended the pope with that book that he was sanctioned.

    Adn all he really did was show that Venus had phases like the moon when observed from Earth, thus proving the work of Copernicus and Kepler.

    Galileo was a practical scientist, not a theoretical one. He used empiracal testing to support the concepts of totehrs more than he used his own ingenuity.

    The telescope was invented by another. All he really did was point it up.
    Don't forget that the Mayans had Venus's cycles down pat. Maybe that is why the Inquisition was so nasty. They were trying to save face.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Felicity wrote. Quote (I find it interesting that as major holy-days approach)

    What Holy days (Major or otherwise) are you referring to?

    Please please do not say Christmas, because that is simply an ancient festival signifying the end of the year.
    It was hijacked by the HRCC who even suggested that Christ / Jesus was born at that time.

    It is actually stated that Jesus was born at the time of Tax assessment in what is now Israel, that time happens at Easter.
    The reason the HRCC took the ancient non Christian end of year festivities as a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus was because they were never able to ban the celebrations.
    Why they ascribed the birth of Jesus to this time of year, was I can only presume, because most folk could not in those days read and would thus not be able to read their Bibles and thus refute the HRCC dictats.
    Now what Major holy-days were you referring to?
    Last edited by jujuman13; 12-22-08 at 11:14 PM.

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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    What I have read about the Church with science is that the idea that the universe revolves around Earth was a scientific theory, not so a religious dogma.

    Ptolemy was an ancient astronomer who created the theory where stars, the Sun and the planets were orbiting around a still standing Earth. He even measured with great accuracy the mathematical -not so realistic- small size of the Sun and its distance from the Earth.

    Ptolemy wasn't a Christian dude, he was Egyptian I think. Well, his theory ruled in the scientific communities for centuries until Copernicus, Galileo, you know the story.

    And, it is not amazing that the Church was skeptic about a new theory, because the Church used to have its own astronomers. The Vatican itself is an astronomical observatory. We must remember as well, that the Church used to have not only religious power but to enjoy political influence. If the Church condemned Galileo or any other astronomer, it may be for a different reason, because the new idea that Earth revolves around the Sun was against another theory of science but not so against the religious scriptures.

    The possibility that by pride -the same pride of many current science theorists- the Church decided to stop the proliferation of the new idea because the Church have been using (read "teaching") the old theory, and this may be the cause of such controversial argument showing the Church against a theory of science.

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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Galileo faced sanction by the church for putting the words of the Pope at the time in the mouth of a fool (Simplico?) in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems.

    .
    Galileo faced sanction from the Church because he refused to teach his theories as theories and insisted as teaching them as truth. Given the evidence at the time, the Church's stance was the reasonable one. According to the scientific method - something that Catholic scientists made signigificant contributions to the development of - Galileo did NOT have enough evidence at that point for his theories to be considered scientific law.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Felicity wrote. Quote (I find it interesting that as major holy-days approach)

    What Holy days (Major or otherwise) are you referring to?

    Please please do not say Christmas, because that is simply an ancient festival signifying the end of the year.
    It was hijacked by the HRCC who even suggested that Christ / Jesus was born at that time.

    It is actually stated that Jesus was born at the time of Tax assessment in what is now Israel, that time happens at Easter.
    The reason the HRCC took the ancient non Christian end of year festivities as a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus was because they were never able to ban the celebrations.
    Why they ascribed the birth of Jesus to this time of year, was I can only presume, because most folk could not in those days read and would thus not be able to read their Bibles and thus refute the HRCC dictats.
    Now what Major holy-days were you referring to?
    That holy day would be Christmas. It was not a tax assessment, it was a CENSUS!
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Galileo faced sanction from the Church because he refused to teach his theories as theories and insisted as teaching them as truth.
    A scientific theory is as close to "truth" as you can get. "Theory" doesn't mean some random idea that just popped into someone's head.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    Given the evidence at the time, the Church's stance was the reasonable one.
    Yes, threatening a man with execution for teaching the truth was a "reasonable" stance. Who in today's world would you like to see the Catholic Church execute for their words?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    According to the scientific method - something that Catholic scientists made signigificant contributions to the development of - Galileo did NOT have enough evidence at that point for his theories to be considered scientific law.
    Baloney. Galileo had plenty of evidence; the geocentric model of the solar system had been falling apart long before Galileo came along anyway.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    A scientific theory is as close to "truth" as you can get. "Theory" doesn't mean some random idea that just popped into someone's head.
    First of all, as to the Copernican system, it was PROTESTANTS who railed against it, NOT Catholics. The Catholic Church never censured the theory or its teaching until the problems with Galileo emerged.

    Galileo's initial work was actually WELCOMED by the Church. This work WEAKENED the Ptolemian system, but this was of no concern to the Church. Galileo was even ENTHUSIASTICALLY greeted by the Pope in 1611 because of his work. Jesuit astronomers were also confirming many of Galileo's discoveries. The Church wasnt hostile to Galileo's work, it was ACTIVELY SUPPORTING IT!

    Pope Paul V and the Jesuits honored Galileo for his work. When he first published his evidence in support of the Copernican system, he received PRAISES from the Church, all the way up to the Pope, for his work, as well as a Cardinal who would become Pope Urban VIII. A modern scholar on the subject by the name of Jerome Langford says that the proof at this point was INSUFFICIENT to "win the allegience of open-minded men." Langford also pointed out that Jesuit astronomers had confirmed his findings.

    Langford also notes that Galileo was also to blame for what later happened to him. "(he) entered the debate without sufficient proof..." It was PROTESTANTS who led charges that Galileo's theories violated the Bible, though Catholics were sensitive to those charges. However, unlike Protestants, Catholics were not closed to what these ideas signified. Cardinal Robert Bellarmine noted that "...we should proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and rather admit that we did not understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be true." Saint Albert the Great concurred with this opinion.

    In 1616, the Church told Galileo that he was free to teach the ideas as a hypothesis (which is all it was at that time), and he agreed. He continued his work WITH THE SANCTION OF THE CHURCH! Eight years later, he was again received warmly by the Pope and other Church leaders. Pope Urban VIII told him that the Church had NEVER declared the Copernican system to be heretical.

    Galileo published Dialogue on the Great World Systems was published in 1632 WITH THE URGING OF THE POPE! His problem was here he ignored the restrictions on teaching it as a hypothesis and posited it as an established truth (which it had NOT been at that point in time.) There is no reason to believe that he would have encountered any problems with the Church had he treated his ideas as the hypothesis that it was.

    In 1633, he was declared suspected of heresy and ordered to desist from publishing. This wasn't the best decision of the Church, however, he did violate his agreement. However, to say that the Church persecuted Galileo is a grave overstatement. Catholic commentators throughout the 17th century repeated that Galileo's ideas were NOT heresy and that interpretations of Scripture were only binding on Catholics if they were agreed to at a general Church council. Catholic scientists continued to make scientific inquiries into a "moving earth" after 1633.

    Yes, threatening a man with execution for teaching the truth was a "reasonable" stance. Who in today's world would you like to see the Catholic Church execute for their words?
    When did the Church threaten to execute Galileo for "teaching the truth?"

    Baloney. Galileo had plenty of evidence; the geocentric model of the solar system had been falling apart long before Galileo came along anyway.
    But it was far from universally agreed to by educated and reasonable men of the era, as noted by Professor Langford.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    First of all, as to the Copernican system, it was PROTESTANTS who railed against it, NOT Catholics. The Catholic Church never censured the theory or its teaching until the problems with Galileo emerged.

    Galileo's initial work was actually WELCOMED by the Church. This work WEAKENED the Ptolemian system, but this was of no concern to the Church. Galileo was even ENTHUSIASTICALLY greeted by the Pope in 1611 because of his work. Jesuit astronomers were also confirming many of Galileo's discoveries. The Church wasnt hostile to Galileo's work, it was ACTIVELY SUPPORTING IT!

    Pope Paul V and the Jesuits honored Galileo for his work. When he first published his evidence in support of the Copernican system, he received PRAISES from the Church, all the way up to the Pope, for his work, as well as a Cardinal who would become Pope Urban VIII. A modern scholar on the subject by the name of Jerome Langford says that the proof at this point was INSUFFICIENT to "win the allegience of open-minded men." Langford also pointed out that Jesuit astronomers had confirmed his findings.
    That's all well and good. And wholly irrelevant to the fact that the Church THEN threatened to murder the man for his teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    Langford also notes that Galileo was also to blame for what later happened to him. "(he) entered the debate without sufficient proof..."

    That sounds like blaming the rape victim for dressing provocatively.
    Even if that were true, it was hardly just cause to threaten to execute him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    It was PROTESTANTS who led charges that Galileo's theories violated the Bible, though Catholics were sensitive to those charges. However, unlike Protestants, Catholics were not closed to what these ideas signified.
    Also unlike Protestants, Catholics used the full force of a nation-state to threaten the man with death unless he recanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    Cardinal Robert Bellarmine noted that "...we should proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and rather admit that we did not understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be true." Saint Albert the Great concurred with this opinion.

    In 1616, the Church told Galileo that he was free to teach the ideas as a hypothesis (which is all it was at that time), and he agreed. He continued his work WITH THE SANCTION OF THE CHURCH! Eight years later, he was again received warmly by the Pope and other Church leaders. Pope Urban VIII told him that the Church had NEVER declared the Copernican system to be heretical.

    Galileo published Dialogue on the Great World Systems was published in 1632 WITH THE URGING OF THE POPE! His problem was here he ignored the restrictions on teaching it as a hypothesis and posited it as an established truth (which it had NOT been at that point in time.) There is no reason to believe that he would have encountered any problems with the Church had he treated his ideas as the hypothesis that it was.
    Wonderful. This proves what exactly, regarding the Catholic Church threatening to execute him for his teachings?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    In 1633, he was declared suspected of heresy and ordered to desist from publishing. This wasn't the best decision of the Church, however, he did violate his agreement. However, to say that the Church persecuted Galileo is a grave overstatement.
    Threatening to murder the man for his teachings - regardless as to what his agreement was, how much proof he had, or whether he was teaching it as being more certain than it actually was - sounds a lot like persecution to me. No, to say that they persecuted Galileo is a grave UNDERSTATEMENT. Harrassed, bullied, and ultimately cowed into submission would be a better description.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    When did the Church threaten to execute Galileo for "teaching the truth?"
    Umm right after he was hauled before the Inquisition for heresy, and right before he was forced to recant his heliocentric theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    But it was far from universally agreed to by educated and reasonable men of the era, as noted by Professor Langford.
    That doesn't mean that sufficient evidence didn't exist at the time to draw the conclusion. Since when are the basic rules of the universe subject to a popular vote?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-23-08 at 07:37 AM.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm right after he was hauled before the Inquisition for heresy, and right before he was forced to recant his heliocentric theory.



    That doesn't mean that sufficient evidence didn't exist at the time to draw the conclusion. Since when are the basic rules of the universe subject to a popular vote?
    He was not killed by the Church.

    I am not talking about the masses, even educated men did not entirely agree. There simply was not enough evidence AT THAT POINT in time to regard the ideas as a scientific law. The compromise agreed to by the Church and Galileo was responsible and reasonable. Galileo broke it, and in doing so, violated a prime tenant of the scientific method. You are right in that scientific law is not democratic or left up to public approval, but at the same time, you need to acquire sufficient evidence to proclaim something a law, and Galileo had simply not met the standard AT THAT TIME. Though, ironic to your point, at the time Galileo was supposedly threatened with death by the Church, Catholic scientists were actually building on Galileo's work.

    Please, get all of the facts before you continue on your anti-Catholic rants.
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    Re: Pope praises Galileo's astronomy

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Felicity wrote. Quote (I find it interesting that as major holy-days approach)

    What Holy days (Major or otherwise) are you referring to?.....Now what Major holy-days were you referring to?
    Happy Holidays!!!

    (What the heck do you think the etymology of that word is, dingus?)

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