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Thread: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

  1. #71
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Both the German and French intel services said Saddam had WMD.
    Provide evidence of this. I know the right wing blogs and media outlets have claimed this over the years, but find me a french or german source, directly quoting either a government official or representative. Show us a news article, where the French and German intelligence agencies agree with the US and UK assessment of the situation in Iraq before the war.

    Schroeder hid a report from one of his ministries that stated the massive effects of bio weapons that Saddam had the chemicals to produce. A small amount was deadly.
    Says who? Provide evidence of this.

    Chirac was a Saddam appeaser and an America hater. As Schroeder is. Just look at his history.
    Oh? because he did not bow down to the US, then he suddenly is an America hater and Saddam appeaser?!?

    Sure I hated Schroeder too, but for his political views, but he was hardly a Saddam appeaser.. of all the things he dealt with as German leader, I think that Saddam was about as important for him as say trade relations with Uganda.

    Both Schroeder and Chirac supported the UN approach of dialogue and searching. We played that game for 12 years.
    A a bit of rewriting history there I see. The policy of the US, UK, France and Germany was to isolate Saddam and bring his regime down from within and to use Iraq as a stop block against Iran. THAT was the policy of Bush nr 1 and Clinton, and a very wise policy. The UN was nothing but the instrument of the major powers, as it has always been.

    What did we learn? Why wasn't the dialogue working? The UN was bought off through the Oil for Food scandal. Saddam was getting billions.
    Oil for Food gave Saddam peanuts. Most of his money came from illegally smuggled oil through Jordan and Turkey.. smuggling the US knew about and did nothing about. It was brought up by the UN on many occasions and the US and UK ignored it (and France and Russia).

    As for the Oil for Food. Every single contract had to get approval by the US, UK and others. Even the contracts that the UN flagged as "odd" were given the green light by the approval committee. So as for the UN being "bought" off.. hardly. Was its management not as up to code as it should have been.. sure, but again, Saddam made most of his billions through NON UN controlled illegal smuggling with the full knowledge and approval of the US and UK. Dont listen to people like Norm Coleman and Fox News.. try to actually read the facts and evidence.

    He believed, and rightly so, that the deck was stacked in his favor. It was up to 911. After that the world changed.
    The deck was stacked in his favor.. sure if you think so. Country isolated, people starving, military run down, society only held in check with brutal force.. sure was soooo stacked in his favour.

    As for the world changing on 9/11.... not really. The US changed yes, but not the world, since we have been fighting terror in many forms since the 1920s. There was the Jewish terror in the 1920s and 30s, then there was the Nazi terror, then there was the various communist terror during the 1950s and 1960s, then there was the PLO and other Palestinian terror in the 1970s and 1980s, and then the commie Red Army and what not. Not to forget the Corsican terror groups and ETA. Yea, we have nooo experience in Europe (or its colonies/dependants) on terror... none, nada..

    We saw the potential of a IslamoNazi terrorist hooking up with a rogue nation that hated America. Saddam was right in their yard.
    Err... lets see.. an islamonazi terrorist hooking up with a rogue nation that is very non religious for the region, treats women relatively nicely (they could vote and join the army after all), or shack up with a rogue nation that is a religous nutjob state, shares the same values and even practices them...yea right.... I would choose the first of course...
    Connect the dots.
    You should actually, since you only jump from one right wing conspiracy theory to another, jumping over the actual facts. Why did you gloss over the fact that the head of the Iraqi WMD program defected to the West and said that the WMD were destroyed? And that documents found later after the war backed him up? Why did you gloss over the fact that the main intelligence source of the US, was an anti-Saddam pro Tehran Iraqi who we later found out totally screwed the US and told lie after lie?

    Where did the French-German-Clinton approach get us?
    Nowhere. If anything it emboldened terrorists as the saw us as weak.
    Saw you as weak? How so? And you dont think that the US actions since Afghanistan in any way embolded the radicals and swelled their ranks?

    Learn your history, and as a start, why not read this from start to finish:
    CRG: Dr David Kay's Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
    You should learn your history.. ALL your history instead of cherry picking bits and rewriting the rest to fit your world view.
    PeteEU

  2. #72
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    Your inability to make a more persuasive case is noted.
    A more persuasive case? You failed to make a case in the first place. You stated your opinion as fact, without backing up said opinion with any form of credible evidence.

    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  3. #73
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Guantanamo have been problematic for many reason. One is the bounty programs that contrary to what some people still believe not everyone got caught with a AK 47 or with planning a bomb. This have long been a myth that the Bush administration have tried to keep a live, that they their all "evil doers".

    But a lot probably a majority was caught through a bounty program their you could get thousand of dollars for just one evil doers. It then very easy to understand that it will be a very good profit making scheme to caught terrorist, but also that the poor Afganisthan villlager will not care very much if the person they caught is innocent or not. The sad part their that the USA goverment neither was that. That they cared very little if the person that was caught was a terrorist or just a way for some poor farmers to earn a small fortune. That the important things seems to be statistic, that you show action by the fact that you have captured a lot of "evil doers".

    Not only was wish very bad from a morality aspect but it also show that money management is thrown out the window then it comes to fighting terrorism. That the capture and imprisonment of innocent have cost millions of dollars. Money that could have been used much more better in the fight against terrorism.

    New Statesman - How Guantanamo's prisoners were sold

    Kafka and Uighurs at Guantánamo - by Ray McGovern

    Report: Profiles of Guantanamo Refugees | Center for Constitutional Rights

  4. #74
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You're a mix alright. All mixed up.

    You know anything mixed with turds is still turds.

    Let's see what they were "right" about:

    Both the German and French intel services said Saddam had WMD.
    Schroeder hid a report from one of his ministries that stated the massive effects of bio weapons that Saddam had the chemicals to produce. A small amount was deadly.

    Why would he do that?

    Chirac was a Saddam appeaser and an America hater. As Schroeder is. Just look at his history.

    Both Schroeder and Chirac supported the UN approach of dialogue and searching. We played that game for 12 years.

    What did we learn? Why wasn't the dialogue working? The UN was bought off through the Oil for Food scandal. Saddam was getting billions.

    He believed, and rightly so, that the deck was stacked in his favor. It was up to 911. After that the world changed.

    We saw the potential of a IslamoNazi terrorist hooking up with a rogue nation that hated America. Saddam was right in their yard.

    Connect the dots.

    Where did the French-German-Clinton approach get us?
    Nowhere. If anything it emboldened terrorists as the saw us as weak.

    Your Neville Chamberlain world view is dangerous.
    Learn your history, and as a start, why not read this from start to finish:
    CRG: Dr David Kay's Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
    Wow, you really are something of a republican eater.
    Oil and food, Saddam and 911, Islam and Nazism, non-dialogue/non-diplomacy straight to war, phony evidence, I guess you eat republican propaganda raw and unprocessed.

    I am damn proud to be nothing like you, nor the other pole.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  5. #75
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And? Your and other American right wingers arguments have been debunked and ridiculed time and time again, and yet you still spread the same bs crap over and over again.

    First off who is David Kay? He is a guy, hired by the man that said it was a "slam dunk" to find WMD in Iraq after the war. He in fact had to eat his pre war words and admit that Iraq had no WMD. And why only David Kay's testimony?

    There has been plenty of reports, testimony and investigative journalism that have proved without a doubt that the Bush administration cherry picked intelligence because the call to take out Saddam was made long before, and that the intelligence had to fit the political reality. It amazes me that even with Bush's own people finding zero, nada WMD in Iraq, that they switched their tone to "oh he could have started up his program bla bla" bullcrap.

    We also knew before the war that Iraqs WMD were destroyed, because the guy who headed the destruction defected and told us. Of course the Bush administration disregarded his words, because Bush wanted to take revenge out on Saddam who tried to hurt his daddy. We also know that during the lead up to the war, that the Bush administration were told by allies that, the facts they were pushing as truthful about Saddam were in fact a bunch of crap. Yellowcake anyone? But this also was ignored, as it did not fit Bush's policies. It was also know that quite a number of CIA operatives and other countries intelligence agency's had serious doubt about the intelligence on the status of Saddams WMD's.... so much for the "slam dunk".

    But that does not change the fact that Iraq had zero to do with 9/11.

    Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, the Gulf States, Pakistan and Afghanistan had and have far more to do with the events leading up to 9/11 and with 9/11 directly and world terror.

    Remember Gitmo was set up because of Afghanistan and 9/11 and not Iraq.... so repeat after me .. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

    Was Saddam a threat? Sure, but compared to North Korea and Iran.. no where near the same threat. His country was in ruins, his military in shambles and he only stayed in power through extreme violence and fear. He was isolated. Do I think it is good we got rid of him.. sure, but I also think that the consequences have been so far not worth the effort, both for the US and the Iraqi people, and especially the world. All it did was empower Iran and Al Q and islamofasism around the world.

    Face it, the neo con right wing US government and President screwed up big time, for personal and monetary reasons, and they cant admit it. The result has been 4000 American deaths and 100k+ Iraqi deaths, hundreds of billions of dollars spent and wasted due to fraud, and leaving Iraq as a failed state in waiting. How it was worth it... but dont come laying the blame for your mess on our doorstep.... it was ALL your doing.
    You can give up, that guy you are debating with is NEVER going to listen no matter how right you are, trust me. He don't care that his government spend hundreds of billions on warfare while his country is falling apart, its his type of people that will be the end of America as we knew it and loved.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  6. #76
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    There you go.

    I agreed with the premise of your post, and thought, damn, an honest Obama supporter with a little bit of brain matter to boot.

    Nope, just a conservative grounded in common sense trying to prove a point.

    So I'm still searching for that lone honest lib, besides Kucinich.

    LOL. Just too funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    BTW, I was advised by an esteemed fellow Conservative poster that my avatar gave off the wrong impression. I was trying to send a barbed (but true) message in a way that might register with the unthinking Obamabots before the election. Obviously it didn't work. I just haven't changed it yet.

    Obama is a sneaky guy who we still can't trust.

    Closing Gitmo represents the height of liberalism run amuck.

    The detainees have to be housed somewhere. Gitmo is conveniently close to the US, it poses no safety risks to civilians and the detainees are incarcerated there humanely.

    Moving them anywhere else runs the risk of changing those parameters.

  7. #77
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Wow, you really are something of a republican eater.
    Oil and food, Saddam and 911, Islam and Nazism, non-dialogue/non-diplomacy straight to war, phony evidence, I guess you eat republican propaganda raw and unprocessed.

    I am damn proud to be nothing like you, nor the other pole.
    What phony evidence? All the world's major countries intel agencies?

    Oil for food is massive corruption scandal and a disgrace that cost lives... did you ever think that if it wasn't for this corruption, there might not have been a need to go to war? Probably not, as people like you are blind as a bat and have problems with reasoning.

    Saddam had nothing to do with 911, but he was a threat, and connecting the dots made him an even greater threat.

    CRG: Dr David Kay's Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
    Kay: ...after 1998 it became a regime that was totally corrupt. Individuals were out for their own protection. And in a world where we know others are seeking WMD, the likelihood at some point in the future of a seller and a buyer meeting up would have made that a far more dangerous country than even we anticipated with what may turn out not to be a fully accurate estimate.
    I take it you did not read the testimony of David Kay. I'd bet a good chunk you didn't because it would upset your narrow world view.

    I spend too much of my time in Europe.
    I seek the truth.
    That truth lead me away from my socialist roots.
    I'd be disgusted with myself living in ignorance or worse the lies and hate you folks embrace.

    One day you might grow up too and seek the truth.
    Good luck on your voyage.

  8. #78
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote:
    They've been wrong on about every major issue for the last thirty years.

    Oh? Give us some examples for such a bold statement.
    Not bold. true.

    TheBosnian mess. They calimed they could fix it by themselves. Wrong.

    Euros said the Russians would never accept NATO enlargement. Wrong.

    The Euros said the Russians would never accept National Missile Defense. Wrong.

    Withdrawing from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty would wreck the structure of international arms control agreements. Wrong.

    Kyoto Protocol is a good treaty. Wrong.

    EU common security and defense would improve NATO military capablities. Wrong.

    Europeans take about Ronald Reagan and the Evil Empire. Wrong.

    Continental Europeans are repeatedly wrong, arrogant and hypocrites. new Europe has a far better record because they know tyranny first hand. They know who and what defeated it. They know who and what policies gave them hope and what emboldened the totalitarians.

    Old Europe should be ignored.
    Their track record is laughable.

    What I really enjoy while in Europe is watching the news from 20 and 25 years ago.
    They show all the F-ups and all the lunatics.
    They still don't get it. They won't either until it's too late.

    Then they'll come whining for our help again.
    Ungrateful ingrates.

  9. #79
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    PEU
    Provide evidence of this. I know the right wing blogs and media outlets have claimed this over the years, but find me a french or german source, directly quoting either a government official or representative. Show us a news article, where the French and German intelligence agencies agree with the US and UK assessment of the situation in Iraq before the war.
    People quickly forget Clinton's claims were exactly the same as Bush. In fact there was a chorus of Democrats on record making Bush's case... when Clinton was president.

    Saddam's Bombs? We'll Find Them - Brookings Institution
    And it wasn't just the United States that was concerned about Iraq's efforts...The Germans were actually the most fearful of all—in 2001 they leaked their estimate that Iraq might be able to develop its first workable nuclear device in 2004.
    At no point before the war did the French, the Russians, the Chinese or any other country with an intelligence operation capable of collecting information in Iraq say it doubted that Baghdad was maintaining a clandestine weapons capability. All that these countries ever disagreed with the United States on was what to do about it.
    In the meantime, accusations are mounting that the Bush administration made up the whole Iraqi weapons threat to justify an invasion. That is just not the case—America and its allies had plenty of evidence before the war, and before President Bush took office, indicating that Iraq was retaining its illegal weapons programs.

  10. #80
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote:
    Schroeder hid a report from one of his ministries that stated the massive effects of bio weapons that Saddam had the chemicals to produce. A small amount was deadly.

    Says who? Provide evidence of this.
    You should do your homework.

    THREATS AND RESPONSES: GERMANY; Schröder's Team Not Telling Full Story on Iraq, Foes Say - New York Times
    THREATS AND RESPONSES: GERMANY; Schröder's Team Not Telling Full Story on Iraq, Foes Say

    Members of Germany's conservative opposition have accused Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's government of withholding a true picture of the threat from Iraq, citing classified German intelligence information that Iraq possesses the smallpox virus and that the Saddam Hussein regime has mobile factories capable of producing chemical and biological weapons.
    Today in Investor's Business Daily stock analysis and business news
    According to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, one of Germany's top newspapers, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's government is playing down its own report, based on intelligence sources, that says Iraq has a smallpox arsenal big enough to kill as many as 25 million Germans.
    ...
    Well. Vater can stick to his story. But doing so makes it hard to explain why Germany nearly doubled this month its order of smallpox vaccine to 66 million doses. By the end of the year, Germany plans to have 100 million doses.

    If Iraq has no biological weapons, what's the purpose?
    These stories are long after the initial claims but reveal the truth about slimy Schroeder. What is interesting in the NYT piece is the EU members were gagging at Schroeder's behavior because it was idiotic and purely designed to get his scummy ass reelected.

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