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Thread: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

  1. #181
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    Maximus Zeebra's Avatar
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    By bashing Americans, you are bashing all of them. Every single one. That is an ignorant generalization and far from etiquette.
    No, I dont bash every single one, just the ones that deserve it.

    I think most Americans are great, but many Americans are the worst people I know, worse than any of the scum on the earth..

    Neo-cons for example aint good people.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 12-23-08 at 01:01 AM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  2. #182
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    The reason why Guantanamo is controversial is not because it violates international law, but because it sidesteps international law. Because terrorists are a form of combattant not directly covered by the GC, technically the U.S. is not violating any laws.

    However, in principle, it is questionable since the U.S. did sign the Geneva Convention under the premise that unfair detention and questionable interrogation methods are not valid under a just international system. It's basically a moral/ethical debate considering the U.S. signed that Convention in good faith. The U.S. has lost face in the matter because it has, in the past, tried to portray itself as a nation of justice and liberty, and yet it has demonstrated that it won't play fairly according to its own image if a piece of paper is not telling it to. So basically, my issue is that the U.S. is operating under a hypocrisy. If you are actually a nation that detains people unfairly and sidesteps international law, then stop pretending you are so goody goody, when you are just like every other country.

    It's not that the U.S. has the "right" to create Guantanamo, it's that it can. The Bush Administration cherry picked technicalities that casted reasonable doubt on the application of the GC to terrorist detainees. The key point that matters is that this reasonable doubt was never heard in an international court, but was one government's say-so. As one of the world's hegemonic powers, its questionable acts are untouchable. If a smaller, less powerful nation did something like that, it would likely be attacked or stripped of economic resources, or dragged in front of a world court. Once again, the reasons for this political mess are power related.

    Also, not all conditions at Guantanamo were in violation of the GC anyway. For instance, Bush said in this White House press release that: "the Geneva Convention will apply to the Taliban detainees, but not to the al Qaeda international terrorists." Since the Taliban was the Afghani government, they are considered detainees of a sovereign State and thus the GC applies. Terrorists, however, are transnational actors and therefore, according to Bush, detaining them as actors of sovereign states is not an applicable policy since terrorist networks operate globally. This means the Bush admin can do whatever it wants to those detainees, including water boarding. I would, however, have preferred to let an international court decide on that one. However, that would never happen, due to the level of power the U.S. has.

    That said, the Bush Admin has already made several statements about the proper treatment of the prisoners (i.e. proper meals, access to religious rites, etc). The issue of waterboarding is something else, however, and I don't agree that it's a fair practice.

    I mostly disagree with the existence of Guantanamo in principle, since it contradicts the image the U.S. tries to project of its own fair and just nature. Now we know that that image is just a guise and the U.S. is a self-interested actor just like anyone else. And yet, some people still believe the propaganda. The next time the U.S. points the finger at anyone else regarding unfair detention practices or even torture, it will have zero credibility. I believe this is the main reason why Guantanamo is now slated for shutdown, as it tarnishes U.S. reputation further.

  3. #183
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I didn't ignore them? Certainly if I did it must have because they were encrypted inside a bunch of other irrelevant stuff, personal attacks and American debate tactics.




    yeah, that must be it:


    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1057854162



    the whole post:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Good Reverend
    i think we should do what the entire world does. Hold them for the duration of the war and at the end of the war, put some on trial and release others.

    my bad.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #184
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    These people you talk about here are simply criminals.. What about blackwater and such then? What is their status? Certainly criminals..
    If I go down to Afghanistan and start fighting and killing people, then I am nothing but a criminal and should be tried in Afghan courts just like people without uniform who fight against the alliance should.


    Blackwater are criminals? in what jurisdiction? what crime has Blackwater committed.....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  5. #185
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #186
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    WHY should I debate with someone who engages in unethical debate and use names and personal attacks rather than facts??
    Thats YOUR way, completely unacceptable in Europe.




    wow this "Europe" of yours sounds very wussified.
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 12-23-08 at 08:21 AM.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #187
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    And now that time is over
    Because you say so?



    No. Sovereign states will always have the right to act in their own self-defense w/o asking the international community for permission.
    Else, they arent sovereign.

    The ONLY power the US have left is the military, NOTHING else.
    This unsupportable statement is rooted in nothng more that jealousy-driven hatred.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-23-08 at 10:22 AM.

  8. #188
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Its a shame the US learn so little of from the second world war, yet took so much to the methods of the Nazis and improved them. Its like half the country is in hypnosis, its just unrealistic to watch..

    People have always been acting like stupid sheep though and probably always will.
    Can't respond to what was actually posted, so you go off on a tangent.

    Well, that's OK -- after all, one-trick ponies can only be espected to do one thing...

  9. #189
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Blackwater are criminals? in what jurisdiction? what crime has Blackwater committed.....
    I thought Blackwater could commit no crime. They're sort of like the terrorists, a new status created to avoid jurisdiction in any court.

  10. #190
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    The UN is a PEACE organization. Wow you guys are so far out.................. Peace is meaningless is what you are really saying.
    The UN is a peace organization?
    Given that there has been no peace, the UN is an obvious failure.

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