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Thread: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

  1. #141
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Which troops are you talking about? Norwegian troops? French troops? European troops in general?
    I assume you are talking about European troops in Afghanistan? They follow the very strictest guidelines in the world when it comes to human rights.
    Hmm.
    Maybe you arent -playing- stupid.

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Alright, I'm seeing a problem here...what's happening is that we're discussing individuals that have a different status, if you will. Ordinary soldiers detained during hostilities don't generally receive combatant trials. However, these individuals are different from those, say, "insurgents" who are not affiliated with a regular army but who are fighting against a regular army and who do not conform to the laws of war as described in Geneva. And these individuals are still different from those who commit acts of terrorism.

    The problem is that we're discussing them without distinguishing their status and actions.

    I was referring to those "insurgent" types that violated the rules of war. I was responding, unknowingly to a comment about yours which was relevant only to ordinary soldiers.
    These people you talk about here are simply criminals.. What about blackwater and such then? What is their status? Certainly criminals..
    If I go down to Afghanistan and start fighting and killing people, then I am nothing but a criminal and should be tried in Afghan courts just like people without uniform who fight against the alliance should.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  3. #143
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I have opinions on the things you said, but I am not going to utter them because of that attack there at the end.. Is it SOOO difficult to be polite and debate in a proper way?
    I was being polite by limiting my criticism to simply calling such views a laughingstock. And it is a laughingstock. Your presumptions are completely absurd and reflect a certain fetish with international law.

    I will ask a question though.; What makes the US different than Nazi Germany then if it wages war without international approval?
    Sickening. Are you serious? And you expect me to be polite when such nonsense is posted?

    Lets see, the US is not on some imperial conquest, not slaughtering millions of Jews and others, shall I go on?

    This fetish with international approval is offensive. It completely subjugates national sovereignty and security to the will and whim of dictators.

    You're not serious are you?

    Ps. none of the nations you mentioned are in the security council, nor respected inside the UN.
    So what are you saying?

    That if the UN Security Council "approves" of war then a state of war exists and this condition is legitimate? Puhlease.

    Second, it doesn't matter if they are not respected. In the GA they still cast votes, no?

    BTW - on the respected inanity...Not being respected hasn't stopped the world's most vicious abusers of human rights to not only sit on the UN HR Commission, but also chair that damn committee.



    Their opinions doesn't matter to say it frankly and straight forward. No one ever said that just because everyone agree except Sudan then it cannot happen, thats not how the UN functions.
    Um, you are clearly ignorant wrt how the UN operates. In 1950, the UN passed the Uniting for Peace resolution which prevents the SC from stopping the GA from taking any action to restore peace and security.

    a) Yes, I do not get mixed up in individual countries justice systems, although if its too far out I will utter an opinion. Like for example stoning and such I can stomach. But it wouldn't be my business.
    Yet, you want these nations voting on whether the US or any other nation can exercise it's national sovereignty?

    b) It would be no problem as long as the American soldiers were under oath.
    Right, lets stop a war so US soldiers can be taken away from the battlefield to participate in courtroom proceedings.

    c) Dont quite understand the question. But I guess it would work like any normal trial in Afghanistan. I dont think they are as technical as trials in the US or Europe, dont think it would be a problem if I understood your question correct.
    I see, so you have faith in such trials because the same protections you demand suspected terrorists are granted by the US may not be granted by the Afghan government?

    d) If a person breaks a law in one country he should be tried in that country, if he escape the country he should be sent back by the nation they find him in to stand trial as a criminal in the country where he committed the crime, which is all normal procedure. Prisoners of war are defined in the Geneva convention, and if they arent POWs they should be treated as criminals in my opinion.
    Well, to say the least, I disagree. They are not common criminals. What you're saying would result in unlawful combatants being granted far more preferential treatment that lawful combatants.

    Dont' you find that repugnant?

    The problem here is the "war on terror", its not really a war, just an agenda. You dont suggest we arrest people in the "war on drugs" and treat them like POWs do you?
    Hardly an appropriate analogy. You're taking a rhetorical device and completely beinding it out of shape. The war on terror involves far mroe than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The war on terror as it is being fought in those two places are, in fact, wars.

    I never said that.. But "the war on terror" isnt really a war and the fact it has no possible "end scenario" makes it impossible to justify with the Geneva convention.
    a) What the hell do you think is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan if not war?

    b) No one is attempting to justify the war on terror by citing Geneva. What Geneva is being relied on to do is provide the basis upon which combatants are evaluated to determine whether they are eligible for POW status.

    The people I talk of above who don't really have POW status nor are US criminals.. They are foreign criminals "kidnapped" and imprisoned in the US, we actually don't know if they are actual criminals either, they haven't stood trial.
    Who are you talking about specifically?

    This does not justify Guantanamo nor does it justify the methods or international conduct of it all.
    It's not intended to justify Gitmo or the methods of detention and trial. The legislation is intended to create the form that such tribunals will be conducted pursuant to US law.

    What if Germans just started arresting and trying Americans under some bizarre German law that they create for the purpose?
    Not analogous to the current situation.

    Say Germany is fed up and decide to arrest and trial all US soldiers in Germany as trespassers under a new bizarre law, that doesnt justify the act, does it, even if the law justify the action under the law.
    No analogy to the current situation.

    Second time with your personal attacks/general attacks.. Why do you do this? Is it too difficult for you to debate in a proper way? Do you understand why people get angry and less unwilling to debate with you when you continue like this?
    Because your comments are offensive. They're offensive because they reveal fundamental misunderstanding of Geneva, an absurd fetish with international law, and a certain degree of anti-Americanism.

    A few more times of this and I will resort to the same methods and most likely end up ignoring you and just annoy you as best I can, like I did reverend_hellhound.. Ok?
    Not ok.

    If you would dispense with the popular anti-war and anti-US talking point I might grant you some degree of respect. But when you boldy declare that no war exists despite the fact that soldiers are involved in combat, I have to question your intellectual honesty and integrity. Sorry, but that's just me.

  4. #144
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I will ask a question though.; What makes the US different than Nazi Germany then if it wages war without international approval?
    Sickening. Are you serious? And you expect me to be polite when such nonsense is posted?
    The post-nationalist refuses to understand that sovereign states have an innate, inherent right to act in their own self-defense, regardless of any international consensus, with the conditions regarding same set by the state itself.

    This post-nationalist illness derives from generations of living under the protection of others.

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The post-nationalist refuses to understand that sovereign states have an innate, inherent right to act in their own self-defense, regardless of any international consensus, with the conditions regarding same set by the state itself.

    This post-nationalist illness derives from generations of living under the protection of others.
    Thank you for that concise diagnosis. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    And this post-nationalism comes from a poster clearly supportive of the current Euro-elite attempts to coerce ordinary Euros into abandoning their national identities and sovereignty by submiting to this supr-national Euro organization not through populat elections but by sneaking it through via treaty, i.e., Lisbon Treaty.

    Amazingly, though, while he's supportive of such undemocratic behavior, he demands the US submit herself to unelected and unaccountable democratic processes at the UN.

    Certainly one of the Euro elite or, perhaps, a mere poseur.

  6. #146
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Thank you for that concise diagnosis. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    And this post-nationalism comes from a poster clearly supportive of the current Euro-elite attempts to coerce ordinary Euros into abandoning their national identities and sovereignty by submiting to this supr-national Euro organization not through populat elections but by sneaking it through via treaty, i.e., Lisbon Treaty.

    Amazingly, though, while he's supportive of such undemocratic behavior, he demands the US submit herself to unelected and unaccountable democratic processes at the UN.

    Certainly one of the Euro elite or, perhaps, a mere poseur.
    I'd describe this post-nationalist disease as one of the downsides of the US having emerged from WW2 as the most powerful nation the world has ever seen.

    This, of course, angers the European, as our ascension represents the closing of the book on their once-mighty empires (the French, especially, take exception to this).

    But, what REALLY honks them off is that, while the US is the most powerful nation the world has ever seen (in both relative and absolute terms), it is unquestionalbly the most benign of the true world powers -- imagine the butchery, had the UK, Spain, Germany or France been able to amass and project so much power.

    I guess what seperates us from them is that -they- have been able to enjoy the luxury of laziness, being protected for so long from the wolves by adults carrying guns, and as such, their perspective on the world has been warped, sufficiently so that they believe that, merely by complaining to some court or other fallacious international body, they can keep the wolves at bay by themselves.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 12-22-08 at 03:30 PM.

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    I'd agree. It's easy to grow up and then submit meanignless pleas to meaningless international organizations when you're not footing the bill for your own security.

    I'd assume I'd be good at it, too, if I had been raised in those nation's where US security is taken for granted and America is regularly damned.

  8. #148
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I was being polite by limiting my criticism to simply calling such views a laughingstock. And it is a laughingstock. Your presumptions are completely absurd and reflect a certain fetish with international law.
    Then I dont wish to read more or engage in further debate with you.. Ever though about the fact that your opinions are ridiculous and a laughingstock?

    not going to throw that ball back and forward.; you clearly have no etiquette and your way of debating is so annoying that I am just not going to debate this further. People like you disgust me, its despicable the way you debate and attack.. People like you are the ones who are ruining your country...

    End of discussion.. *pushing virtual ignore button*
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  9. #149
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The post-nationalist refuses to understand that sovereign states have an innate, inherent right to act in their own self-defense, regardless of any international consensus, with the conditions regarding same set by the state itself.

    This post-nationalist illness derives from generations of living under the protection of others.
    Its a shame the US learn so little of from the second world war, yet took so much to the methods of the Nazis and improved them. Its like half the country is in hypnosis, its just unrealistic to watch..

    People have always been acting like stupid sheep though and probably always will.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  10. #150
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The post-nationalist refuses to understand that sovereign states have an innate, inherent right to act in their own self-defense, regardless of any international consensus, with the conditions regarding same set by the state itself.

    This post-nationalist illness derives from generations of living under the protection of others.
    THERE WAS NO SELF DEFENSE ABOUT ATTACKING AND RUINING IRAQ. Dont you GET IT?

    Iraq attacking the US was and always have been completely unrealistic. Wow you guys are bra..d...
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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