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Thread: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

  1. #131
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    People captured by your troops who were fighting said troops -never- receive trials.
    Not civlians trials anyway. However, combatants detainedduring hostilities were and are still granted military tribunals to contest their detainee status. By excecutive order until 2006 when Congress and the President, per direction from SCOTUS created legislation to administer military tribunals. Another example...Combatant Status Review Tribunals as part of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2006.

    There appear to be people who think that unlawful combatants and suspected terrorists should be treated just as we treat ordinary criminals, you know, because we should be nice.

    It's really an argument that says no matter that they're attacking the very system these people want to use to protect them. It's insane.

  2. #132
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    but are you with that post?



    Note you still ignore my points on Gitmo!
    I didn't ignore them? Certainly if I did it must have because they were encrypted inside a bunch of other irrelevant stuff, personal attacks and American debate tactics.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    People captured by your troops who were fighting said troops -never- receive trials.
    Which troops? What war? Which nations?
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  4. #134
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Which troops? What war? Which nations?
    Right. Because no one is at war, right? War only exists when the UN provides its stamp of approval, eh?



    Talk about a philosophy of national suicide.

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Which troops? What war? Which nations?
    Dont play stupid.
    Many of the people at Gtimo were captured as they fought our troops.
    People captured by your troops who were fighting said troops -never- receive trials.

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Not civlians trials anyway. However, combatants detainedduring hostilities were and are still granted military tribunals to contest their detainee status.
    None of the troops captured in WW2 received these trials.

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    None of the troops captured in WW2 received these trials.
    Alright, I'm seeing a problem here...what's happening is that we're discussing individuals that have a different status, if you will. Ordinary soldiers detained during hostilities don't generally receive combatant trials. However, these individuals are different from those, say, "insurgents" who are not affiliated with a regular army but who are fighting against a regular army and who do not conform to the laws of war as described in Geneva. And these individuals are still different from those who commit acts of terrorism.

    The problem is that we're discussing them without distinguishing their status and actions.

    I was referring to those "insurgent" types that violated the rules of war. I was responding, unknowingly to a comment about yours which was relevant only to ordinary soldiers.

    Remember that Ex Qurin case from 48 when those Germans were captured shortly after arriving on-shore here in America? Weren't they German military personnel? They received civilian trials, right?

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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I just love this fetish with everything international. Yeah, the US ain't legally in Iraq... BFD! This inanity from you presupposes that wars cannot be fought unless they're recognized by some group of unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats in the UN or the Hague or some such nonsense. No wonder the Euros are perceived as having lost thier stomach for war. You people seem to think that war doesn't exist unless it's approved of by representatives of dictators from Libya, Sudan, North Korea, et al. You're a laughingstock.
    I have opinions on the things you said, but I am not going to utter them because of that attack there at the end.. Is it SOOO difficult to be polite and debate in a proper way?

    I will ask a question though.; What makes the US different than Nazi Germany then if it wages war without international approval?

    Ps. none of the nations you mentioned are in the security council, nor respected inside the UN. Their opinions doesn't matter to say it frankly and straight forward. No one ever said that just because everyone agree except Sudan then it cannot happen, thats not how the UN functions.


    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    That's a fair point and one that is argued well by the left here in America. But a question for you...well, a few:

    a) Would you accept their brand of justice if it didn't include the same due process rights our western nations recognize and grant?

    b) How do you propose to successfully prosecute those cases in an Afghan court when you're relying on American, for example, military personnel for testimony?

    c) How do you avoid, via prosecution, revealing your abilities to collect and use intelligence in conducting such prosecutions?

    d) Are these not important considerations in determining how to handle these combatants that are not eligible for POW status?
    a) Yes, I do not get mixed up in individual countries justice systems, although if its too far out I will utter an opinion. Like for example stoning and such I can stomach. But it wouldn't be my business.

    b) It would be no problem as long as the American soldiers were under oath.

    c) Dont quite understand the question. But I guess it would work like any normal trial in Afghanistan. I dont think they are as technical as trials in the US or Europe, dont think it would be a problem if I understood your question correct.

    d) If a person breaks a law in one country he should be tried in that country, if he escape the country he should be sent back by the nation they find him in to stand trial as a criminal in the country where he committed the crime, which is all normal procedure. Prisoners of war are defined in the Geneva convention, and if they arent POWs they should be treated as criminals in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Then you have no idea what you're talking about.
    The problem here is the "war on terror", its not really a war, just an agenda. You dont suggest we arrest people in the "war on drugs" and treat them like POWs do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Geneva doesn't require nations at war to conduct civilian trials. Geneva does provide for indefinite detention until the cessation of hostilities. It's all right there in Geneva Three.
    I never said that.. But "the war on terror" isnt really a war and the fact it has no possible "end scenario" makes it impossible to justify with the Geneva convention.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    As for "kidnapped foreigners." What the heck are these?
    The people I talk of above who don't really have POW status nor are US criminals.. They are foreign criminals "kidnapped" and imprisoned in the US, we actually don't know if they are actual criminals either, they haven't stood trial.



    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    There do have trials and they do have legal protections. These trials and proections are granted and conferred via US law. For example, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which was preceded by executive order controlling the conduct of military tribunals.
    This does not justify Guantanamo nor does it justify the methods or international conduct of it all.

    What if Germans just started arresting and trying Americans under some bizarre German law that they create for the purpose? Say Germany is fed up and decide to arrest and trial all US soldiers in Germany as trespassers under a new bizarre law, that doesnt justify the act, does it, even if the law justify the action under the law.


    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    Your ignorance is astounding given the force with which you present your comments.

    Rendition is something wholly different from detaining lawful and unlawful combatants.
    Second time with your personal attacks/general attacks.. Why do you do this? Is it too difficult for you to debate in a proper way? Do you understand why people get angry and less unwilling to debate with you when you continue like this?

    A few more times of this and I will resort to the same methods and most likely end up ignoring you and just annoy you as best I can, like I did reverend_hellhound.. Ok?
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 12-22-08 at 02:16 PM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  9. #139
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by JMak View Post
    I was referring to those "insurgent" types that violated the rules of war. I was responding, unknowingly to a comment about yours which was relevant only to ordinary soldiers.
    I'd argue that it is relevant to anyone cought fighting our troops.
    Part of the problem is that the GC hasn't cought up to reality. and exists in the context of states waging war against one another. Absent that, states have a right to do what they need to do to protect their people.

    Remember that Ex Qurin case from 48 when those Germans were captured shortly after arriving on-shore here in America? Weren't they German military personnel? They received civilian trials, right?
    I believe they were captured and treated as spies.
    This differs from capturing a tank crew or infanty platoon.

  10. #140
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    Re: Guantanamo closure plan ordered

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Dont play stupid.
    Many of the people at Gtimo were captured as they fought our troops.
    People captured by your troops who were fighting said troops -never- receive trials.
    Which troops are you talking about? Norwegian troops? French troops? European troops in general?
    I assume you are talking about European troops in Afghanistan? They follow the very strictest guidelines in the world when it comes to human rights.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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