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Thread: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriemon View Post
    I'm not criticizing your choice or arguing that there aren't benefits to the hybrid.

    Folks were criticizing GM for halting production development. My point is that the market drives demand for such vehicles, and at $2/gal for fuel with a recession, I question whether there is going to be much demand for these vehicles. Apparently GM questions that as well. At $4/gal, a hybrid makes twice as much sense from an economic perspective.
    Well that is going to have to be for others to decide. I would gladly choose using American power over foreign oil.

    If others don't want to, that's their choice. But the technology is out there and $2 gas will not stay forever. We saw how quickly gas can rise in just a year and then two years.

    If people don't want to learn from their mistakes, they deserve what they get.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Well that is going to have to be for others to decide. I would gladly choose using American power over foreign oil.

    If others don't want to, that's their choice. But the technology is out there and $2 gas will not stay forever. We saw how quickly gas can rise in just a year and then two years.

    If people don't want to learn from their mistakes, they deserve what they get.
    The technology is available to produce the cars, though, of course, the government feels compelled to subsidize their cost as they do with other hybrids. The problem is that the nation's infrastructure ain't prepared to accomodate this increase in electrical demand.

    At best this is a transition vehicle. At worst, it's a waste of energy and resources that will inevitably cost us far more than we can save.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Well that is going to have to be for others to decide. I would gladly choose using American power over foreign oil.

    If others don't want to, that's their choice. But the technology is out there and $2 gas will not stay forever. We saw how quickly gas can rise in just a year and then two years.

    If people don't want to learn from their mistakes, they deserve what they get.
    Maybe true. People will generally do what they perceive is their economic interest, even if the perception is wrong. And producers ultimately have to produce what the market wants.

    If we want more people to consider things like hybrid cars, you have to make it more economically reasonable to do it. Either the car has to be less expensive or gas has to cost more.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Well that is going to have to be for others to decide. I would gladly choose using American power over foreign oil.

    If others don't want to, that's their choice. But the technology is out there and $2 gas will not stay forever. We saw how quickly gas can rise in just a year and then two years.

    If people don't want to learn from their mistakes, they deserve what they get.
    The technology is not truly out there, unfortunately, because I don't believe electric cars are the answer.

    Let's say the Volt existed, and it was a truly great car. To support American made cars, as well as slow the dependence on foreign oil, Americans were buying them in droves. With all of these cars needing electricity, what do you think would happen to the power supply?

    I remember the blackout we had a few years back. A few too many people were running their air conditions a little too high during a heat wave and BAM. Now imagine tens of millions of cars.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    The technology is not truly out there, unfortunately, because I don't believe electric cars are the answer.

    Let's say the Volt existed, and it was a truly great car. To support American made cars, as well as slow the dependence on foreign oil, Americans were buying them in droves. With all of these cars needing electricity, what do you think would happen to the power supply?

    I remember the blackout we had a few years back. A few too many people were running their air conditions a little too high during a heat wave and BAM. Now imagine tens of millions of cars.
    Not according to these people:

    Utilities Have the Electric Capacity

    Over 40% of the generating capacity in the U.S. sits idle or operates at a reduced load overnight, when most PHEVs would be charged. That means tens of millions of plug-ins could be charged every night without the need to build additional electric generation capacity. For example, Southern California Edison, an investor-owned utility, estimates that 4 million plug-in hybrids could be charged without exceeding its existing peak load. Millions more could be fueled within existing capacity.
    Plug-In Partners

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    The technology is not truly out there, unfortunately, because I don't believe electric cars are the answer.

    Let's say the Volt existed, and it was a truly great car. To support American made cars, as well as slow the dependence on foreign oil, Americans were buying them in droves. With all of these cars needing electricity, what do you think would happen to the power supply?

    I remember the blackout we had a few years back. A few too many people were running their air conditions a little too high during a heat wave and BAM. Now imagine tens of millions of cars.
    And again you are assuming everyone will be charging their vehicles at the high point during the day.

    You are also using your electric company. Maybe yours can't support it, but if the demand is out there, then upgrades can be done. Nuclear power can more easily be introduced favorably as well.

    Also the volt is not a pure electric car. It is a hybrid. As such it is not going to replace ALL vehicles, but if you can shorten the amount of gas used by in city drivers, isn't that worth investing in?

    As for your comment that "to support it, people have to buy it in large numbers", that is true and it isn't. Long term you are correct, short term you are not correct. Take a look at the personal computer. How many had them when they came out and what was their cost? Pretty high cost and low usage.

    As more people used them, the technology advanced and they became more affordable. The same will eventually happen with electric cars.

    To me it is worth the investment. I and others plan to buy the car. We'll see when gas prices go back up, who is complaining.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 12-18-08 at 05:02 PM.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And again you are assuming everyone will be charging their vehicles at the high point during the day.

    You are also using your electric company. Maybe yours can't support it, but if the demand is out there, then upgrades can be done. Nuclear power can more easily be introduced favorably as well.

    Also the volt is not a pure electric car. It is a hybrid. As such it is not going to replace ALL vehicles, but if you can shorten the amount of gas used by in city drivers, isn't that worth investing in?

    As for your comment that "to support it, people have to buy it in large numbers", that is true and it isn't. Long term you are correct, short term you are not correct. Take a look at the personal computer. How many had them when they came out and what was their cost? Pretty high cost and low usage.

    As more people used them, the technology advanced and they became more affordable. The same will eventually happen with electric cars.

    To me it is worth the investment. I and others plan to buy the car. We'll see when gas prices go back up, who is complaining.
    Let me just start by saying I am all for saving the environment. It's an issue that is near and dear to my heart. Having said that, I'm not prepared to jump the gun and sing hallelujah at any of the " alter oil" ideas/plans that will save us from pollution and the big bad oil guys. The solution of "just supplying more energy" is not as easy as you make it seem. With more demand on electricity will come a higher price... just like oil. My house has been smart metered to avoid what happened a few years back, because our old and faulty grid can barely handle peak hours. In order to create this electricity that we need, we will need a lot of oil. Funny how that works.

    There is nothing out there--at present (hey, I can be optimistic!)--that is as wonderful as black gold. The amount of energy required to produce it is miniscule compared to what it takes to provide electricity/ethanol/hydrogen, etc.

    -------

    "What About Super Fuel Efficient
    and/or Electric Cars?"



    Hybrids:

    Hybrids or so called "hyper-cars" aren't the answer either because the construction of an average car consumes the energy equivalent of approximately 27-54 barrels (1,110-2,200 gallons) of oil. Thus, a crash program to replace the 700 million internal combustion vehicles currently on the road with super fuel-efficient or alternative fuel-powered vehicles would consume the energy equivalent of approximately 18-36 billion barrels of oil, which is the amount of oil the world currently consumes in six-to-twelve months. Consequently, such a program (while well-intentioned) would actually bring the collapse upon us even sooner.

    See also:

    The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrid Cars

    Electric Vehicles:

    Electric vehicles are incapable of replacing more than a small fraction (5 or maybe 10%) of the 700 million internal combustion engine powered cars on the road due to the limits of battery technology. Dr. Walter Youngquist explains:

    . . . a gallon of gasoline weighing about 8 pounds has the same
    energy as one ton of conventional lead-acid storage batteries.
    Fifteen gallons of gasoline in a car's tank are the energy equal of
    15 tons of storage batteries.

    Even if much improved storage batteries were devised, they
    cannot compete with gasoline or diesel fuel in energy density.
    Also, storage batteries become almost useless in very cold
    weather, storage capacity is limited, and batteries need to be
    replaced after a few years use at large cost.

    There is no battery pack which can effectively move heavy farm
    machinery over miles of farm fields, and no electric battery
    system seems even remotely able to propel a Boeing 747 14 hours
    nonstop at 600 miles an hour . . .

    Some promising research into new battery technlogies using lithium is being performed, but even the scientists at the forefront of this research admit, "We've got a long way to go."

    See also:

    Prius Batteries Creating Massive Environmental "Dead Zone"

    Assumming these problems away, the construction of an average car also consumes 120,000 gallons of fresh water. Source Unfortunately, the world is in the midst of a severe water crisis that is only going to get worse in the years to come. Source Scientists are already warning us to get ready for massive "water wars."

    Thus, the only way for us to replace our current fleet of gas-guzzling SUVs with fuel-efficient hybrids or electric vehicles is to seize control of the world's reserves of both oil and fresh water and then divert those resources away from the billions of people who already rely on them.

    Even if we are willing to undertake such an endeavor, the problem will still not be solved due to a phenomenon known as "Jevon's Paradox," whereby increases in energy efficiency are obliterated by corresponding increases in energy consumption.

    The US economy is a good example of Jevon's Paradox in action. Since 1970, we have managed to cut in half the amount of oil necessary to generate a dollar of GDP. At the same time, however, our total level of oil consumption has risen by about fifty percent while our level of natural gas and coal consumption have risen by even more. Thus, despite massive increases in the energy efficiency over the last 35 years, we are more dependent on oil than ever. This trend is unlikely to be abated in a market economy, where the whole point is to make as much money (consume as much energy) as possible.


    This is a really great website with tons of info. There are link provided to the text I pasted here, so check it out:

    Peak Oil: Life After the Oil Crash
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    There is nothing out there--at present (hey, I can be optimistic!)--that is as wonderful as black gold. The amount of energy required to produce it is miniscule compared to what it takes to provide electricity/ethanol/hydrogen, etc.

    -------

    "What About Super Fuel Efficient
    and/or Electric Cars?"



    [I]Hybrids:

    Hybrids or so called "hyper-cars" aren't the answer either because the construction of an average car consumes the energy equivalent of approximately 27-54 barrels (1,110-2,200 gallons) of oil. Thus, a crash program to replace the 700 million internal combustion vehicles currently on the road with super fuel-efficient or alternative fuel-powered vehicles would consume the energy equivalent of approximately 18-36 billion barrels of oil, which is the amount of oil the world currently consumes in six-to-twelve months. Consequently, such a program (while well-intentioned) would actually bring the collapse upon us even sooner.


    Peak Oil: Life After the Oil Crash
    The volt is not meant to replace all vehicles. I don't know where you claim it is.

    However, for those that live in the city yes, it is a good thing. I can tell you one thing. The volt will be more useful to society than the Hummer or the corvette.

    It isn't going to replace everything, but to claim that it is no better than the combustible engine of the everyday person driving around the city is just plain wrong.

    The battery capabilities are increasing and from the looks of the data they are using 2002 data. A lot has changed since 2002.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The volt is not meant to replace all vehicles. I don't know where you claim it is.

    However, for those that live in the city yes, it is a good thing. I can tell you one thing. The volt will be more useful to society than the Hummer or the corvette.

    It isn't going to replace everything, but to claim that it is no better than the combustible engine of the everyday person driving around the city is just plain wrong.

    The battery capabilities are increasing and from the looks of the data they are using 2002 data. A lot has changed since 2002.
    What I'm saying is that the Volt or any electric car is not the answer to:
    1) dependence on foreign oil
    2) global warming

    At least definitely not now, nor the near future.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    What I'm saying is that the Volt or any electric car is not the answer to:
    1) dependence on foreign oil
    2) global warming

    At least definitely not now, nor the near future.
    I am not even contemplating buying the volt for gloabal warming, but yes, it is a start to ending our dependence on Foreign oil.

    If you show me those saying that the Volt is the end to the dependence on foreign oil I will say they is wrong. It is is a hybrid and as such will use gas when needed.

    But for those that drive less than 40 miles a day it is the end of foreign oil for their car as a majority for their car source.

    Isn't that better than nothing? I mean seriously. It is a start in the right direction. Over the decades of doing NOTHING about it, finally we have something that is American Made and trying to make a difference.

    That is worth something to support, if not with money, than with just support of the idea IMO.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 12-18-08 at 07:57 PM.

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