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UK work time opt-out under threat

Ikari said:
You keep changing how much time you put in. First it was 30 hours/week. Then it was 6 1/2 per day, and now you're up to 7 1/2. I assume that 7 1/2 doesn't count your lunch break which is probably an hour, so you're down to 6 1/2 hours. And didn't you say that you got a 10 min break/hour? In 6 hours, that an hour; so that takes you down to 5 1/2 hours per day...so what is it?
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Its 7 1/2 hours a day, 4 days a week, 10 minute breaks inside every hour. Thats 30 hours a week included 5ish hours of breaks. I don't have 1 hour lunch.. Makes my effective work time about 25 hours, and those hours are demanding and highly effective.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Its 7 1/2 hours a day, 4 days a week, 10 minute breaks inside every hour. Thats 30 hours a week included 5ish hours of breaks. I don't have 1 hour lunch.. Makes my effective work time about 25 hours, and those hours are demanding and highly effective.
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I'm sure it's real exhausting. :roll:
 
Infinite Chaos said:
That's not how our National Health Service is paid for...

It's paid through taxes on cigerettes & alcohol, duties on oil and other products. We do pay contributions through National Insurance but it's pretty miniscule compared to the taxes and duties collected elsewhere. Sorry if that ruined your point. :lol:
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Your National Health care is paid mostly through general taxation not just luxuries or foreign duty taxes. That cigarettes, alcohol, clothes, tariffs, fees, heck anything short of your air is general tax and is appropriated to the National Health care to shore up shortfalls. You should know this. There have been HUGE arguements over appropriations this year alone dealing with your healthcare and its recent decline (mostly finger pointing). The "contributions" are 20% of your total individual tax and not really "contributions".

As to this whole event, its just wrong. Silly and wrong. The government shouldn't regulate a person's work schedule. 40hr work weeks are the standard even in the US. But some people like to work more than that to buy luxuries or pay for themselves or their children to participate in expensive activities (cheerleading and its cost, football and its cost, speedboating, target shooting). There shouldn't be any sort of hoops to work extra hours if they want to do so voluntarily.

The fact that the UK unions are all for this is mind boggling. They should be staunchly opposed to this in any way shape or form. If they suddenly ask for a pay hike with fewer hours I'm going to get a good chuckle.

Its 7 1/2 hours a day, 4 days a week, 10 minute breaks inside every hour. Thats 30 hours a week included 5ish hours of breaks. I don't have 1 hour lunch.. Makes my effective work time about 25 hours, and those hours are demanding and highly effective.
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25hrs...wait WHAT? Are you kidding me? What work do you do thats "demanding and highly effective"? Thats like my swedish friend who lives off of 2hrs a day doing a paper route.
 
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What is 'slave'like about a 48 hour week? That's 8 hours over 6 days. I put in 60-70 hours easily in a week. I can work for 3 days straight and take maybe 2-3 hours naps and then get right back at it and this is something I've been doing for years now. I think the far left is too quick sometimes to label people who work a lot as 'slaves'. I don't do it cause I'm a slave. I do it because I love getting that nice paycheck in the mail. I'm not tight on money, I'm not on welfare and my credit has less spots on it then an all white carpet. Seriously if people want to work overtime just let the employers deal with it. Not the government.
 
Kernel Sanders said:
The point is to make it difficult to work the hours you want to work? All this time I thought I was missing something - that's a horrible law
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Why are your circling here? The point as I have confirmed to you a dusin times now is to make it more difficult to work more than 48 hours, not overtime(which in Europe is usually between 37.5/40 hours and 48 hours).. Who WANTS to work more than that anyways? Special sectors with special needs are excluded from this activity, whole companies can apply opt outs if its reasonable and so on..
 
Hatuey said:
What is 'slave'like about a 48 hour week? That's 8 hours over 6 days. I put in 60-70 hours easily in a week. I can work for 3 days straight and take maybe 2-3 hours naps and then get right back at it and this is something I've been doing for years now. I think the far left is too quick sometimes to label people who work a lot as 'slaves'. I don't do it cause I'm a slave. I do it because I love getting that nice paycheck in the mail. I'm not tight on money, I'm not on welfare and my credit has less spots on it then an all white carpet. Seriously if people want to work overtime just let the employers deal with it. Not the government.
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WOOT? What do you work with if you dont mind me asking..? That sounds HORRIBLE, like my worst nightmare. If I need extra cash I just do independent work/self employment stuff, I certainly have time for it.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Why are your circling here? The point as I have confirmed to you a dusin times now is to make it more difficult to work more than 48 hours, not overtime(which in Europe is usually between 37.5/40 hours and 48 hours).. Who WANTS to work more than that anyways? Special sectors with special needs are excluded from this activity, whole companies can apply opt outs if its reasonable and so on..
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Is there a problem with people getting forced to work long hours? Because otherwise anybody who is working 48 hours wants to be working 48 hours. If people are being forced to work 48+ hours that would be an extremely serious problem and this law is too soft, if anything. If not, I don't see how anybody sees any benefit from the government making it hard to work the number of hours they want to work.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
WOOT? What do you work with if you dont mind me asking..? That sounds HORRIBLE, like my worst nightmare. If I need extra cash I just do independent work/self employment stuff, I certainly have time for it.
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Irrelevant. I don't do it because I have to. I do it because I love working. That's the point. We can't all be lazy french men or depend on the government for assistance when we hit rock bottom.
 
Kernel Sanders said:
Is there a problem with people getting forced to work long hours? Because otherwise anybody who is working 48 hours wants to be working 48 hours. If people are being forced to work 48+ hours that would be an extremely serious problem and this law is too soft, if anything. If not, I don't see how anybody sees any benefit from the government making it hard to work the number of hours they want to work.
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Yes, there is that problem, its not FORCE, but MARKET force which are driving up regular times for the majority. Take my home country Norway for example, there was no such max time regulation but many Unions. A small minority of people had to work a lot, say 60 hours because they wanted more money. Eventually these people with their added money drove up prices for just about everything forcing another small minority to work more than normal 40 hours, say 60 hours, then they drove up prices and another majority who worked 40 hours could not afford to compete with these people because they only worked 40 hours, but now had to work 60 hours because of the price increases...
Now in my country(which have the highest GDP in the world) we have the highest prices in the world and all people that I know work like mad men to follow the rest of the society and to survive they have to work overtime, because it is no longer possible to have a decent living when "only" working 40 hours....

Its the same principle as indebted societies and property market values vs prices..


This is why I think the new law is damn good, because I have seen how living without such a law has ruined and enslaved my home nation.. People there don't have time for anything anymore and the social repercussions of what is going on are enormously bad. I don't like to speak to those people anymore, they are always in a hurry and have no time, thats partly a reason that I moved.. They are a majority of slaves. :(


The same is more or less true for the UK, and I guess from what I hear from you guys it is at some stage taking place in the US as well.
 
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So you're saying that a bunch of people worked their asses off to get money, and with the money they earned bought expensive homes. Because people were buying expensive homes in a region the upkeep (which was probably well handled) and demand drove property prices up. And then other people wanted what those guys had, so they had to work their asses off to earn the money to do so. And now that it aggregated, you think the homes they have; which took the original people busting their balls to make money to own, should be the standard and you don't think subsequent people should bust their balls even though the original people had to bust their balls. So you want to be able to have the homes they had but not put in the time they did to earn the money to get it huh? You're law is idiotic, you could have handled this without the government.
 
Ikari said:
So you're saying that a bunch of people worked their asses off to get money, and with the money they earned bought expensive homes. Because people were buying expensive homes in a region the upkeep (which was probably well handled) and demand drove property prices up. And then other people wanted what those guys had, so they had to work their asses off to earn the money to do so. And now that it aggregated, you think the homes they have; which took the original people busting their balls to make money to own, should be the standard and you don't think subsequent people should bust their balls even though the original people had to bust their balls. So you want to be able to have the homes they had but not put in the time they did to earn the money to get it huh? You're law is idiotic, you could have handled this without the government.
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Inflation is valid in all walks of life... I stopped reading your post when you assumed that I was saying something that you thought out rather than read..
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Inflation is valid in all walks of life... I stopped reading your post when you assumed that I was saying something that you thought out rather than read..
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Inflation is one thing, but what you're talking about isn't caused by inflation since that would affect everyone. Your argument was that a small group of people worked their asses off to afford stuff and that ended up driving up the price of everything. Which is false on a few fronts. One is that if it's a small group, they can't drive up the price on everything. How many homes does one own? Usually one. Some guy works his ass off to buy an expensive home, he's not going to buy another one. So he's out of the market and his influence is then gone. You can locally drive prices up by increased demand, but it's not possible for a small group of people to aggregated drive it up everywhere. Also, the demand is not then sustainable. The small group would run out of market force and without the additional market force, prices would fall. Less other people wanted what those people had and decided to work their asses off so that they could too get it. But that's no fault of the business nor the domain of government. That's consumer demand, and all markets are going to respond to it.

So this gets aggregated over, and soon an entire region has inflated prices. But if this is a bubble, then it's not sustainable; it will pop. But your solution is not one of market control, but rather productivity and labor control. Instead of trying to either pop that bubble or otherwise restore proper market forces to real estate; you seek to empower through government restrictions and control on labor. So in essence you're trying to forbid that initial guy who wanted more and wanted to work for more the ability for him to work for more. That, or you grossly misrepresented the causes for the real estate bubble. Working wage arguments are best handled through individual unions as they can adjust to the localities easier.
 
Ikari said:
Inflation is one thing, but what you're talking about isn't caused by inflation since that would affect everyone. Your argument was that a small group of people worked their asses off to afford stuff and that ended up driving up the price of everything. Which is false on a few fronts. One is that if it's a small group, they can't drive up the price on everything. How many homes does one own? Usually one. Some guy works his ass off to buy an expensive home, he's not going to buy another one. So he's out of the market and his influence is then gone. You can locally drive prices up by increased demand, but it's not possible for a small group of people to aggregated drive it up everywhere. Also, the demand is not then sustainable. The small group would run out of market force and without the additional market force, prices would fall. Less other people wanted what those people had and decided to work their asses off so that they could too get it. But that's no fault of the business nor the domain of government. That's consumer demand, and all markets are going to respond to it.

So this gets aggregated over, and soon an entire region has inflated prices. But if this is a bubble, then it's not sustainable; it will pop. But your solution is not one of market control, but rather productivity and labor control. Instead of trying to either pop that bubble or otherwise restore proper market forces to real estate; you seek to empower through government restrictions and control on labor. So in essence you're trying to forbid that initial guy who wanted more and wanted to work for more the ability for him to work for more. That, or you grossly misrepresented the causes for the real estate bubble. Working wage arguments are best handled through individual unions as they can adjust to the localities easier.
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You obviously havent been to the richest country in the world. Its not like that there.. Everyone have to work overtime every day, and preferably work weekends to be able to keep up with everyone else.; I guess we are just one step further from what you are..

The principle is easy.. Why can the French do almost the same as you when their average week is 35 hours and yours is 45 hours? Aside form that they have months of vacation every year while you only have a few weeks that you usually do not take..

They live their lives, often in relaxation.. They work to live, you guys live to work.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
You obviously havent been to the richest country in the world. Its not like that there.. Everyone have to work overtime every day, and preferably work weekends to be able to keep up with everyone else.; I guess we are just one step further from what you are..
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And there's the rub. People all wanted the same stuff. Some guys initially worked their assess of to get it, and then everyone wanted it; but it seems not by methods of also working their asses off to get it. I also don't see why you have to keep up with everyone else. Live as you wish, and if you want more you're gonna have to work with it. Me? I'm fine with an apartment for now so long as I can play video games and hang out with friends. And I can do all that with my "slavish" hours.

Maximus Zeebra said:
The principle is easy.. Why can the French do almost the same as you when their average week is 35 hours and yours is 45 hours? Aside form that they have months of vacation every year while you only have a few weeks that you usually do not take..
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Easy, they don't accomplish in a week what we do here. They have a very socialist government and their jobs are all pretty well government ensured. It also prohibits mobility in the work place and displaces younger generations. In America, things are guaranteed. You can keep your job so long as you can do a better job than the guy next to you. So we're built for productivity and work, wherein we work for what we earn and don't take much in the form of government handout or security past safety regulation. It means you have to work hard, but also makes things very mobile. Rich can become poor, poor can become rich; but you can't maintain a status quo by sitting on your ass. You have to put in energy.

Maximus Zeebra said:
They live their lives, often in relaxation.. They work to live, you guys live to work.
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Not really, we're just overall not comfortable with socialism or government handouts. We like very much independence and being able to reap the benefits of our own labor. But we work hard and we play hard.
 
Kernel Sanders said:
Is there a problem with people getting forced to work long hours? Because otherwise anybody who is working 48 hours wants to be working 48 hours. If people are being forced to work 48+ hours that would be an extremely serious problem and this law is too soft, if anything. If not, I don't see how anybody sees any benefit from the government making it hard to work the number of hours they want to work.
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As much as this sounds like a redneck, neocon, Republican cliche insult for liberals: Max really does hate freedom. He would be much happier with the EU telling him how to live every facet of his life.
 
As much as this sounds like a redneck, neocon, Republican cliche insult for liberals: Max really does hate freedom. He would be much happier with the EU telling him how to live every facet of his life.
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Yep, I was right. These are the exact same criticisms that were used against the 8 hour work day.

Pitiful.
 
Ikari said:
Easy, they don't accomplish in a week what we do here. They have a very socialist government and their jobs are all pretty well government ensured. It also prohibits mobility in the work place and displaces younger generations. In America, things are guaranteed. You can keep your job so long as you can do a better job than the guy next to you. So we're built for productivity and work, wherein we work for what we earn and don't take much in the form of government handout or security past safety regulation. It means you have to work hard, but also makes things very mobile. Rich can become poor, poor can become rich; but you can't maintain a status quo by sitting on your ass. You have to put in energy.
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I'm pretty sure French GDP Per Capita per hour worked is higher than the US's. Americans work more hours, but the French accomplish more per hour, the reason US GDP is higher is down to quantity of work, not quality. It actually begs an interesting question as to what would happen if the French did work a similar number of hours, would France become a richer country than the US? Of course if they did GDP per hour may decline...

Secondly, I'd love to see a study which says social mobility in the US is higher than it is in France! I can't find a source saying either online just now, but I'm almost 100% sure France has significantly higher social mobility. In fact I think it was discussed on DP a while ago, I'll look for the thread.
 
Slainte said:
I'm pretty sure French GDP Per Capita per hour worked is higher than the US's. Americans work more hours, but the French accomplish more per hour, the reason US GDP is higher is down to quantity of work, not quality. It actually begs an interesting question as to what would happen if the French did work a similar number of hours, would France become a richer country than the US? Of course if they did GDP per hour may decline...

Secondly, I'd love to see a study which says social mobility in the US is higher than it is in France! I can't find a source saying either online just now, but I'm almost 100% sure France has significantly higher social mobility. In fact I think it was discussed on DP a while ago, I'll look for the thread.
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If this were the case why do large French company's need to be subsidized by the government?

France was ranked 21 in 2004, the US was number 2.

World Facts and Figures - GDP per capita by country
 
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Khayembii Communique said:
Yep, I was right. These are the exact same criticisms that were used against the 8 hour work day.

Pitiful.
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There is a big difference between companies forcing people to work and people volunteering to work as much as they wish to.
 
RightOfCenter said:
As much as this sounds like a redneck, neocon, Republican cliche insult for liberals: Max really does hate freedom. He would be much happier with the EU telling him how to live every facet of his life.
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I HAVE FREEDOM, I LOVE FREEDOM.. WHY DO YOU SAY I DONT? DID I EVER SAY I DIDNT?

Nope, but I am HAPPY about the PROTECTIOn the EU gives rather than the LACK of protection and brainwashing the US government CLEARLY gives you..

It angers me to see the way you do "intellectual debate"..

geee..

I cant explain it because its too cryptic the way Americans debate..

1 Someone says something
2 American claims what that someone has said and rephrase it to fit his own image
3 American pounds on his own wrong quotation of that someone
4 Someone proves him wrong
5 American goes into national pride mode and picks apart 1 of 50 facts
6 American then starts debating that 1 fact instead of original context
7 The Someone is dragged into another debate and another and another until the American is eventually right about something
8 The someone tries to get back to the point, the broader picture, the context of everything
9 American is tunnel visioned into what he sees as him winning the debate because he was right about something
10 American starts ranting on about loads of irrelevant things and avoids the original context and the broader debate
11 The someone desperately tries to get back on track and debate in an intellectual fashion
12 The American high on himself starts the personal attacks
13 The someone who is right about what he is saying just gives up trying to prove anything to the American because he will not listen to what he is saying.


Conclusion.. There is a major issue with how you people debate on this forum. You put misquoted opinions into people. You rephrase things to fit you vision of things, go on with personal attacks and stays away from looking at the facts. You never admit that someone else is right even when they clearly are..

It just pisses me off enormously. Dont be emotional, be intellectual!

This is not really about you RightOfCenter, because you usually don't do these things, but you doing it was the creaming of the angry cake, I'm rather disappointed with you, dont follow in the footsteps of idiots, use your brain man.
 
Ikari said:
And there's the rub. People all wanted the same stuff. Some guys initially worked their assess of to get it, and then everyone wanted it; but it seems not by methods of also working their asses off to get it. I also don't see why you have to keep up with everyone else. Live as you wish, and if you want more you're gonna have to work with it. Me? I'm fine with an apartment for now so long as I can play video games and hang out with friends. And I can do all that with my "slavish" hours.
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Why do you assume things you know NOTHING about? I AM HAPPY about 30 hours, I MANAGE DAMN fine with it.. Are you not sick of the way you assume people think?
Its about me, if you started readin some of my posts you would possibly understand what I am saying, but yoo are unfocused and clearly just want to come up with another personal attack.. I am making more than average people even with a 30 hour week, thats not the issue like ive said to you 100 times now.. But what about Norway? you didnt understand the example, everyone have to work overtime in order to afford to live even a simple life..

It angers me the ability of people here to ignore what is actually said and continue their prejudice rant.

Ikari said:
Easy, they don't accomplish in a week what we do here. They have a very socialist government and their jobs are all pretty well government ensured. It also prohibits mobility in the work place and displaces younger generations. In America, things are guaranteed. You can keep your job so long as you can do a better job than the guy next to you. So we're built for productivity and work, wherein we work for what we earn and don't take much in the form of government handout or security past safety regulation. It means you have to work hard, but also makes things very mobile. Rich can become poor, poor can become rich; but you can't maintain a status quo by sitting on your ass. You have to put in energy.
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Of course they dont, but you dont accomplish in an hour what they do.. Its like you say in France also, everyone there can work better than the next man and he will keep his job, but they ALSO have social security which you dont.. They have in fact everything that you have and a ton of extra good stuff as well.


Ikari said:
Not really, we're just overall not comfortable with socialism or government handouts. We like very much independence and being able to reap the benefits of our own labor. But we work hard and we play hard.
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Thats why your veterans sleep on the streets..
 
Blackdog said:
If this were the case why do large French company's need to be subsidized by the government?

France was ranked 21 in 2004, the US was number 2.

World Facts and Figures - GDP per capita by country
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Nice to see the 2003 figures again.. Does it make you feel better, the times America was second?
Take a look at the list for 2007...

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US is 12th in IMF and 10th in CIA list.. France is just a few places behind in both, and they also have a social system, free health care and all those things.
 
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